For those who ask, "What freedoms have YOU lost?"

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GalvestonDuck
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#21 Postby GalvestonDuck » Wed Aug 03, 2005 9:54 pm

streetsoldier wrote:
BEER980 wrote:The next attack will not involve airplanes but are designed to be high body count events. It will be bombings of several types from the chatter I see.


I hope they aren't reading this, BUT...if the terrorists want that kind of massive slaughter, a small, Midwestern college town with a sizeable mall would do nicely for their purpose.

BEER980, you once posted something about such an attack in a mall with a diversionary bombing...could you provide a link for that? :larrow:


Was it in one of these threads, perhaps, Bill?

http://www.storm2k.org/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=52364
http://www.storm2k.org/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=53285
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#22 Postby Brent » Wed Aug 03, 2005 10:13 pm

streetsoldier wrote:
BEER980 wrote:The next attack will not involve airplanes but are designed to be high body count events. It will be bombings of several types from the chatter I see.


I hope they aren't reading this, BUT...if the terrorists want that kind of massive slaughter, a small, Midwestern college town with a sizeable mall would do nicely for their purpose.


You know what... I had a dream about that a few nights ago. The fallout would be massive. No one would feel safe since most Americans live in small towns.
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#23 Postby Brent » Wed Aug 03, 2005 10:14 pm

GalvestonDuck wrote:
streetsoldier wrote:
BEER980 wrote:The next attack will not involve airplanes but are designed to be high body count events. It will be bombings of several types from the chatter I see.


I hope they aren't reading this, BUT...if the terrorists want that kind of massive slaughter, a small, Midwestern college town with a sizeable mall would do nicely for their purpose.

BEER980, you once posted something about such an attack in a mall with a diversionary bombing...could you provide a link for that? :larrow:


Was it in one of these threads, perhaps, Bill?

http://www.storm2k.org/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=52364
http://www.storm2k.org/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=53285


He might read some messageboards where Al-Qaeda associates post.
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#24 Postby feederband » Thu Aug 04, 2005 12:42 pm

Lindaloo wrote:
feederband wrote:I'm a big nascar fan.. I go to as many races as I can get too. Ever since 9/11 When I'm in the crowd I always think....hmmmmm what a easy target we are packed in here like sardines...I worry that a sporting event may be the next target in the U.S.



See you at Talladega. :D


At all the tracks I've been to Talladega probably has the craziest fans....I think terrorist would be afraid of that place.. :lol:
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#25 Postby stormie_skies » Thu Aug 04, 2005 12:59 pm

Stephanie wrote:
Brent wrote:
The Big Dog wrote:It's ironic that the things done in the name of freedom only make us less free. Stories like this bring it home. We're now treating ordinary Americans like terrorists. Paranoia has won, and Franklin's famous line has never been truer.

What if the next terrorist attack is carried out by three guys named Smith, Jones and Brown? That should tie up the check-in lines from here to the end of time.


Incidents like this make it seem like the terrorists got what they wanted... I REALLY hate to say it.
4 years later and now more than ever I believe it.

Oh and I HIGHLY HIGHLY doubt the next attack will involve an airplane. Watch for a London-style attack on the ground transportation system in a big city.


I have to agree with that statement.

We do have to be careful and we are in a "new age" - the terror age. That's not going to go away. We have to stay security-conscious when travelling. However, I have to wonder sometimes if our agents really know what they are looking for.

BTW - I hope that you can get this resolved stormie.


I have to agree also. The most defiant thing that we could do, IMHO, is realize that there is a risk, that there will ALWAYS be a risk, that the risk is relatively small compared to the other risks we face every day, and minimize the risk as much as possible without compromising what our nation is and what it stands for. If its really our freedom they envy (I don't believe that, but many seem to), then we are handing it to them on a silver platter....

I do understand the point of screening at airports. I think it's a necessary evil. My problem is that I think there are much better ways to do it than what we are doing ... the CAPPS system (which is the TSA's screening mechanism right now, and must be the thing that flagged me) is, by all accounts, extremely primitive. It doesn't use birth dates or approximate ages when comparing names to the FBI lists....sometimes, a full first name isn't even required. Plus, it uses a whole bunch of "indicator" criteria that would obviously snare a lot of regular innocent people - things like travel history and credit reports, as well as a bunch of other things that the government wont even discuss with us (that is what is stalling the ACLU's case, I believe ... the government refuses to tell the plaintiffs what flagged them in the first place).

I suppose this wouldn't be so bad if there was a clear cut way to clear up mistakes - but it doesn't seem like there is. All you can do is get a letter from the TSA and hope for the best - and likely be subject to search and interrogation every time you want to travel. The fact that there is no way to contest or even know the "charges" this system is making against you absolutely has to be a violation of the "flagged" individuals right to due process. But I guess silly things like the Constitution have ceased to matter..... :x

Oh, and thanks to everyone who has offered tips and support. I really needed to vent more than anything... :oops: ....but its so encouraging to know that most people think that this is ridiculous, and that Im not the only one.....
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#26 Postby CaptinCrunch » Thu Aug 04, 2005 1:14 pm

The US constitution contains clear language requiring government officials to obtain a search warrant signed by a judge based on evidence of "probable cause" that the person to be searched has committed a crime.

Here's what the founding document of the United States says:

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

The war on drugs has voided this language. If you live in the US, you can now be searched without a warrant, at random, with no legal recourse. Whatever police find can and will be used against you. It's like a year-long hunting season, and everybody is fair game.

The war on drugs is the main device through which government has obtained the right to violate your privacy. In the last four decades, court rulings at all levels, but especially in the Supreme Court, have given police, school officials, private security officers, employers and others the right to inspect your body and belongings if they think you are guilty of drug crimes.

The "war on terror" has capitalized on and extended the government's drug war powers while quieting citizen resistance to government intrusiveness. That's why most people riding on subways and other public transit systems in places like New York City are passively submitting to random searches; they're afraid that terrorists will blow them up, based on recent bombings in London, so they've given up their rights.

New York Police Department officers, members of one of the anti-civil liberties police department in the country, are walking up to people on subways, trains, ferries and buses, and demanding that the people submit to searches of their bodies, baggage and other belongings.

New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg, a Republican corporate magnate who runs the city as if it was his private company, authorized illegal police brutality and illegal citizen detentions during anti-war protests at last year's Republican Party convention in the city. He claims that the city's transit search policy is a necessary response to London terrorism.

"Are the searches intrusive? Yes, a little bit," Bloomberg said at a press conference. "But we are trying to find that right balance."

That "right balance" apparently includes racial profiling, a practice long used in the drug war. "Drug courier profiles" created by the DEA and other law enforcement agencies contain characteristics that apply to virtually everyone, but especially target non-whites, immigrants, poor people, hippies, and youth. Numerous lawsuits and journalistic investigations have established that blacks and Hispanics, and now Arabs, are far more likely to be stopped and searched by police than white citizens are.

To avoid being accused of profiling, New York police claim they have been instructed to search people at random, without probable cause. But it's a Catch-22 for them because either way, say constitutionalists, the searches violate US law.

Representatives of the New York Civil Liberties Union (NYCLU), say the police are using profiling, but even if they are just doing "random searches," the searches are violations of the Constitution's Fourth Amendment, which protects against "unreasonable searches and seizures."

"We are entitled to move freely around the city without being worried about being searched by police," NYCLU Director Donna Lieberman said. "The NYPD can and should investigate any suspicious activity, but the Fourth Amendment prohibits police from conducting searches where there is no suspicion of criminal activity."

Lieberman is well-intentioned, but apparently does not realize that the Fourth Amendment is long dead.

Many judges will rule that evidence illegally seized was nevertheless seized "in good faith," and can be used to prove guilt. Prosecutors often use such evidence to create a "preponderance of information" that a crime was committed. Illegally-seized evidence can negatively influence a judge during sentencing, can help a prosecutor impeach the honesty of a defendant, and can be used as proof of other crimes that have nothing to do with the contraband seized.

An ancillary problem with America's new police search protocols is that police have been taught that there are dozens of traits that give them probable cause to search someone for suspected illegal activity.

As with the overly broad list of traits used by the DEA and other police agencies that allegedly indicate a person is carrying illegal drugs are so generic as to identify virtually everyone.

Drug cops seeking to identify drug-carrying travelers are advised that the following characteristics provide reasonable suspicion: "Arrived late at night, arrived early in the morning, arrived in afternoon, one of first to deplane, one of last to deplane, deplaned in the middle, purchased ticket at airport, made reservation on short notice, bought coach ticket, bought first-class ticket, used one-way ticket, used round-trip ticket, paid for ticket with cash, paid for ticket with small denomination currency, paid for ticket with large denomination currency, made local telephone call after deplaning, made long-distance telephone call after deplaning, pretended to make telephone call, pretended not to make telephone call, traveled from New York to Los Angeles, traveled to Houston, traveled to small town, carried no luggage, carried brand-new luggage, carried a small bag, carried a medium-sized bag, carried two bulky bags, carried two heavy suitcases, carried four pieces of luggage, overly protective of luggage, disassociated self from luggage, traveled alone, traveled with a companion, acted too nervous, acted too calm, made eye contact with officer, avoided making eye contact with officer, wore expensive clothing and gold jewelry, dressed casually, went to restroom after deplaning, walked quickly through airport, walked slowly through airport, walked aimlessly through airport, left airport by taxi, left airport by limousine, left airport by private car, left airport by hotel courtesy van, suspect was Hispanic, suspect was black female, suspect was young, suspect was old, suspect had long hair, suspect wore bright clothing, suspect wore conservative clothing..."

As you can see, the list includes virtually every traveler. Courts have upheld the legality of searches based on just one of the preceding traits.
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#27 Postby stormie_skies » Thu Aug 04, 2005 1:39 pm

I agree with you 100% that much of this errosion of freedom started with the "drug war." In fact, the act of making the consumption of a substance illegal at all was an encroachment on commonly accepted rights at the time that drug laws were first instituted. For about half of this nations history, the right to ingest whatever one wanted was considered a part of personal liberty...but I digress (thats the libertarian streak in me :lol: ). Modern Americans would learn a lot from Ben Franklin ... or any of the other founding fathers, for that matter. WE NEED to learn a lot from them. Because what we have now is in no way what they envisioned for this "land of freedom"....
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#28 Postby BEER980 » Thu Aug 04, 2005 6:27 pm

Rainband I do not work for the government. I am a concerned/well informed citizen. I have 20+ web sites that I visit regulary and many that I visit every nite. I ferret my share of info looking for good tidbits to bring to the attention of any that are interested. I just want to be as prepared as I can be for whatever event happens.
Brent I don't have the time to translate the raw AQ boards so I rely on a few message boards that translate it. It is a lot of work to work with the raw Arabic. Hopefully your dreams never come true.
streetsoldier I think duck found the post you were looking for.
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#29 Postby GalvestonDuck » Thu Aug 04, 2005 7:28 pm

stormie_skies wrote:For about half of this nations history, the right to ingest whatever one wanted was considered a part of personal liberty...


Back on the AJ subject again? Nah, just kidding...gonna PM you though instead of replying here about your situation, otherwise, it will sound like I'm being mean to you and that's not the case.
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Stupid

#30 Postby bevgo » Fri Aug 05, 2005 9:07 am

It may be stupid but I am willing to give up a few freedoms to be safe and to help keep my family safe. I think it is sad that the government feels the need to put upstand citizens on the watch list and I do agree there should be some way to be cleared so someone with no reason to be under suspicion will not be continually harassed. I feel sure that a solution will be found at some point. I have not flown since 911 but my hubby has. He was searched both comming and going--selected for ramdom searches. He thought it was funny. I just want to feel safe, but that day may never come. Until that time I will happily allow searches of any belongings. I have nothing to hide. Last week the police were here looking for a runaway whose GM lives next door to us. We allowed him to walk through and go out our back door. If I had anything to hide I could not have allowed that. So I will keep my nose clean and continue to be an informed citizen.
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Re: Stupid

#31 Postby george_r_1961 » Fri Aug 05, 2005 7:07 pm

bevgo wrote:It may be stupid but I am willing to give up a few freedoms to be safe and to help keep my family safe. I think it is sad that the government feels the need to put upstand citizens on the watch list and I do agree there should be some way to be cleared so someone with no reason to be under suspicion will not be continually harassed. I feel sure that a solution will be found at some point. I have not flown since 911 but my hubby has. He was searched both comming and going--selected for ramdom searches. He thought it was funny. I just want to feel safe, but that day may never come. Until that time I will happily allow searches of any belongings. I have nothing to hide. Last week the police were here looking for a runaway whose GM lives next door to us. We allowed him to walk through and go out our back door. If I had anything to hide I could not have allowed that. So I will keep my nose clean and continue to be an informed citizen.


Exactly. This isnt the 1700's when our Constitution was written. The good men who wrote this document had no way of knowing what would happen more than 2 centuries later. I will gladly give up a few of my "rights" to prevent another 9/11.
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#32 Postby stormie_skies » Fri Aug 05, 2005 10:26 pm

....because they didn't face danger during the Revolution, and in the years after....???

:eek:
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#33 Postby george_r_1961 » Fri Aug 05, 2005 10:28 pm

stormie_skies wrote:....because they didn't face danger during the Revolution, and in the years after....???

:eek:


Or maybe they didnt foresee the drug problem that is ruining this nation.
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#34 Postby GalvestonDuck » Fri Aug 05, 2005 10:41 pm

george_r_1961 wrote:
stormie_skies wrote:....because they didn't face danger during the Revolution, and in the years after....???

:eek:


Or maybe they didnt foresee the drug problem that is ruining this nation.


Isn't that a whole other thread? :lol:
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#35 Postby CentralFlGal » Sat Aug 06, 2005 3:44 am

While I agree that rights are being intruded upon, I've not yet heard any viable alternatives to profiling and search/seizure.

How can one be protected in an open society against the dregs of humanity without having bags searched or being flagged by the authorities based on similarities individuals may (or may not) possess?
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#36 Postby drudd1 » Sat Aug 06, 2005 7:17 am

I can understand how this all came about, but I have a feeling it is for naught.

The government could give the war on drugs an unlimited budget, and they would never succeed. All the money, searches and seizures, border patrols, you name it will not eliminate drug usage is the US. They couldn't do it with alcohol, and they can't with drugs. That being said.............

All the safeguards in the world can not, and will not prevent another terrorist attack, if the terrorists choose to do it again. While they may be able to influence when and where they attack to a certain degree, the very nature of the problem assures that it would be impossible to prevent. I take that back, if we all moved to underground concrete bunkers, and we weren't allowed to ever venture out, then they might have a chance.

If the terrorists choose not to use airliners as they did for 9/11, it will have far more to do with the fact that they know the passengers will not cooperate, instead of the security measures currently in place. Passengers in this instance, probably are more of a deterrent than anything the government can do.

The problem is we expect the government to do something. If they don't, we will raise holy hell. Unfortunately, the only method at their disposal is the very thing us, as Americans deplore the most.........profiling, searches, etc. I personally think it has gotten out of hand in certain areas, which is not unexpected. Governments, not just ours, tend to wait too long to act, and then go overboard when they do, and eventually they back off, and fix things to a certain degree. There will undoubtedly be snafus, and many will get corrected, but I doubt all will.

When discussing things like this, the saying comes to mind, "If you outlaw handguns, then only the outlaws will have them." While many will have a problem with this statement, it has a ring of truth to it. It could easily be changed to, "If you take away all our freedoms and liberties, terrorists will still blow things up." If you pass a law, the only ones that will follow it are the ones it was not targeted to address. Only law abiding citizens follow the law, or wait in security lines, the undesirable element could give two hoots about whether it is legal or not, or which line they should be in. The same applies to the terrorist safeguards being taken. The folks getting run through the ringer are you and me, law abiding citizens, that weren't a threat to begin with. The terrorist, who is adept at beating the system, will still do whatever it is he or she chooses to do, while the ordinary citizen is waiting in line at the airport.
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#37 Postby USCG_Hurricane_Watcher » Mon Aug 08, 2005 6:33 am

I can hold my tongue no longer...

These are new times and we must all adjust...I will gladly give up whatever freedoms are required to ensure life goes on and those around me are put at ease. I fly out of Reagan National ALL THE TIME...believe me, I get put through the ringer every single time because of some of the gear I am required to carry. Do I complain? No...I go through the search, provide the required documentation and submit any required forms. Is it tedious?...yes. Does it take up time?...yes. But, Does the aircraft and passangers arrive in one piece?...again, yes. These rules are "fluid" ....just as they were ramped up, they will decrease as time and conditions warrant.

While being placed on a watchlist mistakenly is unfortunate, your's is not the only case. Put forth the effort to get your name removed...there are other avenues and I feel that all avenues have yet to be exploited.

To put this in further perspective, have you traveled to eastern Europe or to Israel lately. You think you got it bad?

The same people who complain now are the same one's who will be the first to lob accusations when the next attck occurs.

I just came back from British Columbia, inspecting a soon-to-be-delivered boat. Got put through an extensive search at DCA, was "grilled" at the border by Canadian border guard (she was cute, too.); but I did all with a smile because I know the purpose and I'm "doing my part."

Don't like what's going on here in the US? ...I can personally vouch that the weather in Vancouver is beautiful this time of year, and winters are mild also...And, they play old Dukes of Hazard re-runs at prime time on major network channels, 7 pm PST.
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#38 Postby stormie_skies » Mon Aug 08, 2005 3:49 pm

USCG...I appreciate the input....

Let me clarify once again that I have NO PROBLEM going through the standard security checks....nor do I have a problem with being pulled out for "random" (and we all know they really aren't) security checks once in a while. I understand that a compromise must be struck between maintaining our privacy and keeping us safe, and I know that a compromise means we all have to give a little.

That said, I think there is a sizable difference between submitting to additional checks due to equipment one chooses to carry and being placed on an entirely different security "level" through no choice of one's own, and with no clear recourse. I am guessing you are still able to check in online or curbside, are you not? And if you leave your equipment (whatever it is) at home, you rarely encounter additional security checks, correct?

What I consider most humiliating & aggrevating is the implied accusation and the fact that I cannot do anything to refute it. It is uncomfortable to say the least to have to have someone explain to you (and the people around you) that "the FBI thinks you are a terrorist" (its not the FBI, but whatever) every time you try to check in for a flight. To have armed guards come to the counter to clear you....to have people look at you like you might explode at any minute....and to know that you will have to deal with those same looks and conditions indefinitely is not something the government should be able to justly level on someone without meeting some sort of burden of proof.

I know I am not the only one saddled with this kind of TSA screw-up. If I was, there wouldn't be a class action suit pending against the TSA as we speak. They estimate that there are thousands of people being unfairly targeted by the government by the CAPPS program.

I am currently exploiting the only "avenue" that exists...I am gathering the forms of identification that the TSA has requested, and I will send them, along with the form they provided, to the address they gave me. However, again, the TSA agent I spoke with said that completing the paperwork is no guarantee that the hassles will stop, or even be lessened. The paperwork gets me a letter - another form of ID. It doesn't tell me why Im on this list, or take me off of it, or let me check in curbside, or keep all the people around me from thinking I am some sort of threat.

You say you "feel that all avenues have yet to be exploited." Would you care to suggest an alternate avenue that I am not yet trying? I would appreciate any assistance anyone has in getting off this godforsaken list....

I don't live in Eastern Europe or Israel. And the last time I checked, they never ratified our Bill of Rights. So frankly, I don't care what they do or do not do in their airports. But I am concerned that our government is not following our Bill of Rights properly.

As for accusations when another attack occurs, don't look at me - I think another attack is inevitable. You mention Israel....with all their security measures, measures that Americans would not put up with in a million years, they still deal with attacks on a regular basis. We are trying to find needles in a haystack....there will never be a guarantee that one won't slip past us. Life has risks. Now, we have to add terrorism to the list. Sad, but true.

And I find your implication that I should leave this country if I disagree with a part of a policy implemented by one department of our government offensive. Everyone disagrees with the government on policies from time to time... and eventually we find legal or democratic ways of correcting most wrongs. That is our right as Americans - no, scratch that, its our duty.

I am glad that you feel you are "doing your part" when you are stopped and searched. I just don't think essentially being labeled a terrorist is my "part"....I like my right to due process, TYVM :wink:
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#39 Postby USCG_Hurricane_Watcher » Mon Aug 08, 2005 4:37 pm

Have you considered petitioning your Congressman? You wouldn't be the first person to utilize this method - and it works much faster than waiting for the "TSA - FBI - NSA - DHS - and back to TSA" route. If you need point of contact who provides congessional oversight, let me know...while they may not be your actual assigned representative, it would not hurt to include their name in an official correspondence to your duly elected rep.

The offer's on the table...PM me to let me know your decision.
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#40 Postby stormie_skies » Mon Aug 08, 2005 4:55 pm

USCG_Hurricane_Watcher wrote:Have you considered petitioning your Congressman? You wouldn't be the first person to utilize this method - and it works much faster than waiting for the "TSA - FBI - NSA - DHS - and back to TSA" route. If you need point of contact who provides congessional oversight, let me know...while they may not be your actual assigned representative, it would not hurt to include their name in an official correspondence to your duly elected rep.

The offer's on the table...PM me to let me know your decision.


My congressman is Tom DeLay. Do you honestly think it would do any good? :lol:

I have actually been considering this, but I want to see if going the TSA's route does me any good, first. I have a feeling that Mr. DeLay is waaaayyy too busy with other, more pressing issues (like staying in office) to give a registered Democrat a helping hand off of a terror watch list..... :roll:

But a point of contact would be very much appreciated. :D All one can do is try....
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