Are these Hurricanes related to Earthquake?

[wxcrazytwo]

Let's re-start this discussion over again, because it makes for a lively thread. Does anyone know of any research done about great quakes and its effects on climo and such. WE CANNOT JUST DISREGARD IT AS LUDICROUS. Something of that magnitude just doesn't dissappear and do nothing..

[joseph01]

Let's re-start this discussion over again, because it makes for a lively thread. Does anyone know of any research done about great quakes and its effects on climo and such. WE CANNOT JUST DISREGARD IT AS LUDICROUS. Something of that magnitude just doesn't dissappear and do nothing..

I doubt there is much if any extant research literature on this issue. The reason being, that it would be hard to come up with a reasonable hypothesis for the connection. With that said, I have seen crazier ideas explored, that's for sure. I'll even try to dream up a possible scenario. Interesting question. Also, earthquakes affecting the climate, may have more of chance for connection, than earthquakes affecting hurricanes. Just my two cents.

[JamesFromMaine2]

ok first of all lets look at the facts:
first of all we know the earthquake changed the rotation of the earth slightly (we either gained or lost time)
We know that it moved water around
we know it moved some islands around!
those are all things we know happend!

Here are something that COULD be related or may not be:
Hotter then normal over most of the US (I am unsure of temps in other parts of the world)
Record Number of Hurricanes for this early in the season
GOM hotter then normal (Prob. related to hotter then normal Temps in the US)

Ok any one see any ways all of this COULD be connected?

I was wondering if MAYBE the earthquake changed the rotation of the earth so we were closer to the sun. that would account for alot of this stuff if that were true!

[wxcrazytwo]

ok first of all lets look at the facts:
first of all we know the earthquake changed the rotation of the earth slightly (we either gained or lost time)
We know that it moved water around
we know it moved some islands around!
those are all things we know happend!

Here are something that COULD be related or may not be:
Hotter then normal over most of the US (I am unsure of temps in other parts of the world)
Record Number of Hurricanes for this early in the season
GOM hotter then normal (Prob. related to hotter then normal Temps in the US)

Ok any one see any ways all of this COULD be connected?

I was wondering if MAYBE the earthquake changed the rotation of the earth so we were closer to the sun. that would account for alot of this stuff if that were true!

Well, what I know of astronomy, the earth is closer during the summer to the sun than in the winter. This quake rung our bell some 8 minutes, which is unheard of in mankind. I do not have the answer James as to the heating, but NY recorded 80 degree temps a couple of days ago. again unheard of. Anyways, I don't think anyone has the answer, except reasonings as why it might be related or not. All I know is something that huge has got to have an effect on the earth somehow..

[margaritabeach]

ok first of all lets look at the facts:
first of all we know the earthquake changed the rotation of the earth slightly (we either gained or lost time)
We know that it moved water around
we know it moved some islands around!
those are all things we know happend!

Here are something that COULD be related or may not be:
Hotter then normal over most of the US (I am unsure of temps in other parts of the world)
Record Number of Hurricanes for this early in the season
GOM hotter then normal (Prob. related to hotter then normal Temps in the US)

Ok any one see any ways all of this COULD be connected?

I was wondering if MAYBE the earthquake changed the rotation of the earth so we were closer to the sun. that would account for alot of this stuff if that were true!

Well, what I know of astronomy, the earth is closer during the summer to the sun than in the winter. This quake rung our bell some 8 minutes, which is unheard of in mankind. I do not have the answer James as to the heating, but NY recorded 80 degree temps a couple of days ago. again unheard of. Anyways, I don't think anyone has the answer, except reasonings as why it might be related or not. All I know is something that huge has got to have an effect on the earth somehow..

Actually the Earth is closer to the sun in Winter, wherever Winter may be depending on where you live, than Summer. The difference is the angle the Earth is in relation to the Sun. We are actually about 3.5 million miles further out from the Sun in the (Northern
hemisphere summer/Southern hemisphere winter) than we are in the opposite
season.

[wxcrazytwo]

I guess that is what I was trying to say:

"When the northern part of the Earth is leaning away from the sun, the situation is reversed—the Northern Hemisphere gets cooler, more indirect sunlight while the southern half receives direct rays. Because of this, the seasons in the Northern and Southern Hemispheres are reversed, about six months apart from each other.

The changing position of the Earth's tilt is the reason for the differences in temperature and length of daylight that distinguish the seasons. When the Northern Hemisphere is leaning toward the sun, the warmth of direct rays causes spring and then summer in that part of the globe. When the Northern Hemisphere is leaning away from the sun, the cooling effects of more indirect sunlight cause autumn and winter."

[Wthrman13]

ok first of all lets look at the facts:
first of all we know the earthquake changed the rotation of the earth slightly (we either gained or lost time)
We know that it moved water around
we know it moved some islands around!
those are all things we know happend!

Here are something that COULD be related or may not be:
Hotter then normal over most of the US (I am unsure of temps in other parts of the world)
Record Number of Hurricanes for this early in the season
GOM hotter then normal (Prob. related to hotter then normal Temps in the US)

Ok any one see any ways all of this COULD be connected?

I was wondering if MAYBE the earthquake changed the rotation of the earth so we were closer to the sun. that would account for alot of this stuff if that were true!

The problem here is that, while the Sumatra earthquake did all of those things in the first paragraph, the actual effect on the earth's rotation, the movement of the islands, etc. was very very small in comparison to the earth's size, rotation rate, etc.. We are talking changes on the order of millionths of a second in the rotation rate of the earth. The islands were maybe moved on the order of 100 feet or so (not sure of the exact number, but let's use a nice round ballpark figure), compared to the diameter of the earth on the order of 8000 miles. Again, very very small compared to the size of the whole earth. At most, the earthquake maybe caused some local atmospheric fluctuations in the form of weak gravity waves (and of course sound waves), which would have quickly dispersed by now. Thus, while there was an effect, it was so small as to be completely negligible. Also, we have most assuredly not moved closer to the sun, at least not by any significant amount, as a result of this earthquake. That would be like postulating that you could change the trajectory of a speeding car by throwing a ping pong ball at it.

There are plenty of good plausible reasons, from a climate standpoint, why this hurricane season has been so active, without resorting to other types of explanations. These reasons include warmer than average Atlantic sea surface temperatures, due to multidecadal fluctuations in ocean flow patterns, and the generally favorable upper-level flow over the deep tropics, keeping incipient storms from being sheared apart, among other things. The Sumatra earthquake is like a mosquito bite on an elephant in comparison.

[GalvestonDuck]

Great explanation, Wthrman13...thanks!

[wxcrazytwo]

Yes. very nice example. Now, I see the light on this topic.

[joseph01]

I couldn't find anything about earthquakes affecting hurricanes, but I did find something vice-a-versa. Hurricanes can trigger microswarms of earthquakes, or microtremors. Apparently, this has never been detected before last year, during Florida's multistorm encounter.

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=mg18625065.900

[wxcrazytwo]

hmm interesting..

[Wthrman13]

I couldn't find anything about earthquakes affecting hurricanes, but I did find something vice-a-versa. Hurricanes can trigger microswarms of earthquakes, or microtremors. Apparently, this has never been detected before last year, during Florida's multistorm encounter.

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=mg18625065.900

Yes, I read that article too. Interesting, but not particularly surprising. The key word here is "micro"

[Pebbles]

I am going to totally jump on this thread as it was I that brought up the discussion last night in team speak (due to someone asking me about it a couple weeks ago). I am a little disappointed no one put any thought into this before posting and the idea may have some valid points.

Here are some serious points to take into consideration.... weather is a very complex system effected by many small things. Has anyone heard of mathematics of chaos theory??!! I believe this was originally looked into by for figuring out the weather. And much of the research was beneficial to model production.. The same models everyone looks at for hurricanes tracking. You know butterfly flaps it's wings in new york and japan gets 12 inch rain flooding storm (just an example folks). Or as someone brought up last night how Mount St. Helens ash ploom effected weather all across the country/world?

And a powerful earthquake that is felt by seismometers all over the world, shaking the earth to it's core and spreading a tsunami all the way to the coast of Africa are not going to affect the weather? People are already looking into the effects of the earthquake on volcanic activity. If indeed (and it's hard to believe the earthquake didn't effect activity in some way) it did of course that is going to impact the weather. Add flooding from the tsunami and that impacted the weather too (increased evaporation), might-est well how such an unfathomable amount of massive moving water might have effected ocean temps, even briefly. We all know that changes in ocean water temps..even by .1 degree C can effect things. Why is it so impossible to think that didn't have an impact on the weather? Believe it or not, I am starting to think perhaps it may have in some way shape or form... and the more you think about it.. the more sense it makes. I wouldn't be surprised if someone is looking into just this and would be very interested in hearing the research.

I am disappointed people made such comments over an idea before even thinking about it! *shakes her had sadly and gives James a hug*

Edit: many people jumped on the thread too with positive input while I was writing this up LOL thankyou *huggers*

[joseph01]

Yes, interconnectedness. I remember hearing in the idea of chaos theory that a butterly flapping its wings in the topics might be the very initial condition, to cause a hurricane to form elsewhere. So, it could be modified that an earthquake "caused" the butterly to flap its wings. I wonder.

[wxcrazytwo]

your right pebbles, Mt. St. Helens did effect climo to a certain extent, as do most huge volcanic eruptions, so how does an eq does not. But Weatherman13, I believe summed it up best..

[Pebbles]

your right pebbles, Mt. St. Helens did effect climo to a certain extent, as do most huge volcanic eruptions, so how does an eq does not. But Weatherman13, I believe summed it up best..

He did but he also said something that caught my attention and should you too...

These reasons include warmer than average Atlantic sea surface temperatures, due to multidecadal fluctuations in ocean flow patterns

Ok... what I want to point out here is the multidecadal fluctuations in ocean flow patterns. Such a powerful earthquake (really the power this thing put out is beyond the comprehension of most.. i can't begin to describe how powerful of an earthquake this was) Surely had an impact on the ocean floor. Lets think for a moment how much movement of the ocean floor caused a teletsunami (for those that doesn't know these are the most powerful type of tsunami that will actually cross and entire ocean basin).. that right folks.. a whole entire OCEAN MOVED! Because this is such a powerful event ...even if brief in time span comparitively... I do believe (between the actual movement of the floor of the ocean and such a transferrer of energy from the moving ocean water itself) it could effected ocean flow pattern in some way.

[Pebbles]

[/quote]


12 January 2005
Earthquake's effect on Earth
Using data from the Indonesian earthquake, NASA officials calculated the quake affected Earth's rotation, decreased the length of day, slightly changed the planet's shape, and shifted the North Pole by centimeters.

Dr. Benjamin Fong Chao, of NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, Md., and Richard Gross of NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif. said all earthquakes have some effect on Earth's rotation. It's just they are usually barely noticeable.

"Any worldly event that involves the movement of mass affects the Earth's rotation, from seasonal weather down to driving a car," Chao said.

Chao and Gross have routinely calculated earthquakes' effects in changing the Earth's rotation in length-of-day as well as changes in Earth's gravitational field. They also study changes in polar motion that is shifting the North Pole. The mean North Pole shifted by about 2.5 centimeters (1 inch) in the direction of 145 degrees East Latitude. This shift east is continuing a long-term seismic trend identified in previous studies.

They also found the earthquake decreased the length of day by 2.68 microseconds. Physically this is like a spinning skater drawing arms closer to the body resulting in a faster spin.

The quake also affected the Earth's shape. They found Earth's oblateness (flattening on the top and bulging at the equator) decreased by a small amount. It decreased about one part in 10 billion, continuing the trend of earthquakes making Earth less oblate.

The researchers used data from the Harvard University Centroid Moment Tensor database that catalogs large earthquakes. Researches calculate the data in a set of formulas, and the results go out on a NASA Web site.

The massive earthquake off the west coast of Indonesia on 26 December, registered a magnitude of nine on the new "moment" scale (modified Richter scale) that indicates the size of earthquakes. It was the fourth largest earthquake in 100 years and largest since the 1964 Prince William Sound, Alaska earthquake.

For information and images on the Web, visit http://www.nasa.gov/vision/earth/lookin ... quake.html.

For the details on the Sumatra, Indonesia Earthquake, visit the USGS Internet site: neic.usgs.gov/neis/bulletin/neic_slav_ts.html.

For related information, go to http://www.isa.org/environment.
[quote][/quote]

[Windspeed]

After reading the posts in this thread, hopefully the following I am providing will clear up a few issues. I am simply going to explain earthquake and tsunami phenomenon, and show why there is zero correlation between this and hurricane or any weather-related phenomenon:

What are Earthquakes and Tsunamis?

Earthquakes occur most commonly on plate boundaries, though they can occur anywhere in the Earth's lithosphere or crust:

a) They can be associated with the interaction between two or more plate boundaries. The San Andreas transform fault is an excellent example of a plate boundary. It represents the point where the North American and Pacific Plates are grinding past eachother. Another common type of plate boundary is a subduction zone. The NE moving Indian plate is subducting beneath the Andaman Plate (also known as the Burma microplate). This is the exact location where the Great 9.2 December Earthquake occurred near Indonesia and was characterized as a megathrust quake. The largest known earthquakes produced by the physical mechnisms of our Earth's lithosphere are at subduction zones, due to the extreme vertical motions induced by such strong thrust quakes. In comparison, transform boundaries like that of the San Andreas fault rarely produce quakes over 8.5 magnitude.

b) Earthquakes also occur at other locations on the Earth's lithosphere that is not a plate boundary. These quakes are characterized as being associated with isostacy and isostatic change (or rebound) and extensional forces. The great quakes in the central U.S. near the New Madrid Seismic Zone fall into this catagory.

c) Earthquakes also occur by the underground movement of magma and hot plastic rocks. Magmatic swarms frequently occur under active volcanoes or in locations where new volcanoes may erupt in the future. These tremors are simply explained by the force of magma forcing its way between rock stratum on a general direction towards the surface.

d) Earthquakes can also be produce by man, though typically very small. Some of the largest known man-induced quakes are being caused in the areas where large amounts of underwater aquifers are being drained for agriculture use. When the water is removed, the porous sedimentary rocks ability to support stratum above fails. These quakes can get as large as 4 and 5 in magnitude. Also, underground explosions from nuclear and tnt testing have been known to register 2 to 3 in magnitude.

Tsunamis

The number one and most deadly phenomenon caused by earthquakes are called tsunamis. These are giant waves created by crustal displacement and rise or fall of seafloor stratum. These waves travel across bodies of water and the length of entire ocean basins to crest and break upon surrounding shorelines with great destruction.

In a previous post, someone mentioned how the great Indonesian Quakes moved a lot of water around; and therefore, this could be inducing an increase in hurricane activity this year. In reality, the displacement of water in the Indian Ocean was extremely minimal and localized only to areas where the seafloor rise and fall occured, as well as landslides on the shelf. The only phenomenon that actually traveled throughout the ocean basins were the energy waves that were created from these abrubt displacements of localized seafloor and overlying water. You must understand that energy waves that pass through water (whether caused by wind, weather, or seismic displacement) are only using the water as a medium in which to propagate through. Waves themselves do not actually move the water from one side of a basin to another. When a wave crests and breaks with a rising shoreline though, it sucks the coastal waters away from the shoreline before surging it all back inland as the wave breaks.

So can energy waves from earthquakes induce hurricanes?

The energy waves produced by earthquakes that move through any medium such as water and rocks do not have a negligible effect on weather phenomenon or hurricanes. They do not warm or cool ocean temperatures because they only use water by which as a medium to travel through. They do not actually move the water unless a wave is cresting and breaking with shoreline rise. But even localized movement of water at shorelines affects only micro-fraction of water compared to the overall ocean basins themselves. Since there is zero correlation to tie a cause variable with an effect variable in this respect, one must conclude that hurricane activity is not affected by the effects of earthquake seismic waves on water.

What about changes in the rotation of the Earth?

This is such a huge misconception. Earlier in the year data was released that the Great Earthquakes in Indonesia were so large, they influenced the Earth on a macro scale. This is fact. However, this has little to do with affecting the actual rotation of the Earth. The great quakes were large enough to induce a harmonic vibration that persisted throughout the interior of the Earth. This vibration was caused from the large P and S waves that propogated chaotically to all points of the lithosphere. However, any effects on the physical mass of the Earth or solar physics responsible for the Earth's rotation were so minute from this earthquake, it is barely negligible. The effects would have to be so large to have an impact on the Earth's Coriolis Effect, hurricanes would be the farthest from our minds, since we would hypothetically be dead from other catastrophic changes. But let me avoid a tangent there and just say that the harmonic vibration from the Great Indonesion Earthquake have no known correlation to weather activity this year.

Okay, so now I have typed out this long-winded post, I want you to understand that this is the simpliest way I can explain all this and avoid getting so technical that I bore you to death. Beyond that, try to understand that earthquakes and hurricanes are not related. I really do not know how else to say it!

[GalvestonDuck]

your right pebbles, Mt. St. Helens did effect climo to a certain extent, as do most huge volcanic eruptions, so how does an eq does not. But Weatherman13, I believe summed it up best..

He did but he also said something that caught my attention and should you too...

These reasons include warmer than average Atlantic sea surface temperatures, due to multidecadal fluctuations in ocean flow patterns

Ok... what I want to point out here is the multidecadal fluctuations in ocean flow patterns. Such a powerful earthquake (really the power this thing put out is beyond the comprehension of most.. i can't begin to describe how powerful of an earthquake this was) Surely had an impact on the ocean floor. Lets think for a moment how much movement of the ocean floor caused a teletsunami (for those that doesn't know these are the most powerful type of tsunami that will actually cross and entire ocean basin).. that right folks.. a whole entire OCEAN MOVED! Because this is such a powerful event ...even if brief in time span comparitively... I do believe (between the actual movement of the floor of the ocean and such a transferrer of energy from the moving ocean water itself) it could effected ocean flow pattern in some way.

You go from "huggers!" to "multidecadal fluctuations?" Sometimes screen names are sooooo deceiving.

[Pebbles]

I found this interesting too

Dear Quartzgal,


That is an interesting question. The answer for most undersea eruptions is that they don't affect the weather at all, except perhaps in the immediate vicinity of the volcano. However, there is presently a controversy regarding undersea volcanic activity and El Nino. You may know that El Nino is a climatic phenomena that has to do with large changes in ocean water temperatures, current directions, and wind directions. Dr. Dan Walker of the University of Hawai'i suggested a few years ago that perhaps large eruptions along the East Pacific Rise might be sufficient to change the water temperatue of the Eastern Pacific Ocean and get the ball rolling to initiate an El Nino. He didn't just think that up - he had earthquake evidence that correlated swarms of earthquakes recorded along the East Pacific Rise with El Nino years. A lot of people don't like the idea but they haven't been able to 100% disprove it either.
Scott Rowland, University of Hawaii

Windspeed.. I read your post.. still absorbing it
Galvenstonduck.... LOL