Both sides of the Santorum bill.

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senorpepr
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Both sides of the Santorum bill.

#1 Postby senorpepr » Mon Jun 06, 2005 2:34 pm

Brace yourself... here's a pair of articles that talk about both sides of the Santorum bill.

Pro Santorum Bill wrote:Weather service needs to get back on track
By Michael Smith
Special to the Star-Telegram

"Taxpayers pay for collection of the weather data and shouldn't have to go through a private provider to make use of it," said a May 4 Star-Telegram editorial.

I agree.
That is why the public should support a bill by Sen. Rick Santorum, R-Pa., to force the National Weather Service for the first time to immediately release 100 percent of its data. The NWS does not release all of its data now, and the agency takes the position that it does not have to do so.

The non-release of data is just one of many problems with today's National Weather Service.
While 2004's Hurricane Charley was "unexpectedly" strengthening to a Category 4 storm within two hours of striking the Florida coast, one of the National Weather Service's most important hurricane data collection aircraft was in Mexico doing an air pollution study.

Worse, the NWS withheld data from another hurricane hunter aircraft for 34 minutes that would have revealed the rapid intensification while it organized a news conference for itself!

The Tsunami Warning Center was unmanned when the earthquake that triggered the Indian Ocean tsunami occurred. At least two of the center's six tsunami detection buoys were out of service, leaving the United States and Canada vulnerable.

The National Weather Service's cooperative observer network, which the NWS says is vital to the climate change issue, has deteriorated to the point that we don't know if the higher temperatures it registers are due to global warming or air conditioners blowing warm air on thermometers in faulty placements!

Congress heard testimony last month that NWS does not have enough money to produce tornado warnings.
Yet with all of these problems in performing its essential mission, the NWS recently changed a successful 50-year old policy and has begun to produce products not intended for use by the public that directly compete with the commercial weather industry.

Santorum's bill would:
• Focus the National Weather Service on its mission of warning of tornadoes and other weather hazards.
• Require the NWS to produce essential ("core") forecasts for the public and essential aviation and marine forecasts.
• Ensure that the NWS produces accurate data.
• Force the NWS to release in real time 100 percent of its data, forecasts and storm warnings to all.
Yes, this includes sending the data through the portals mentioned in the Star-Telegram's editorial, "and by such other mechanisms as the Secretary of Commerce [the parent agency of the NWS] considers appropriate," such as Web pages, NOAA Weather Radio, etc.

The private sector will continue to produce products needed by specialized users of weather information and technology.
The critics comparing NWS vs. weather industry to FedEx vs. the U.S. Postal Service apparently want the NWS to start charging for its forecasts.

FedEx could never compete if the Postal Service delivered packages free.
We don't want the NWS to charge the public. We want a level playing field in which private-sector companies compete with one another and the NWS performs its essential mission, free of charge, to the public.

These goals are in the national interest and worthy of support.

Michael Smith is a fellow of the American Meteorological Society, a certified consulting meteorologist and the CEO/founder of WeatherData Inc. of Wichita, Kan. http://www.weatherdata.com http://www.stormhawk.com


Anti Bill wrote:Partly foggy on some key components
By Dan Sobein
Special to the Star-Telegram

In his op-ed, "Weather service needs to get back on track," Michael Smith, CEO of WeatherData Inc., shows a misunderstanding of the effect of S. 786 becoming law. There was also confusion on his part about the distribution of weather information to Americans.

Smith alleged:
"While 2004's Hurricane Charley was 'unexpectedly' strengthening ... one of the National Weather Service's most important hurricane data collection aircraft was in Mexico doing an air pollution study."

The NWS does not own aircraft. The primary source for data collection for hurricanes is the Air Force Reserve. The parent agency of the NWS, the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, does own aircraft that are primarily used for research, but also act as a backup to Air Force planes. One of these was located in Mexico doing research. These planes carry a full contingent of staff just in case they are needed on short notice. The other planes were very active helping out the Air Force Reserve.

Smith also states, "[W]orse, the NWS withheld data from another hurricane hunter aircraft for 34 minutes that would have revealed the rapid intensification while it organized a news conference for itself!"

This is simply not what happened. The NWS has never withheld hurricane data. Smith misunderstands the process of how information gets from the planes to the world. After all of the data is accumulated by the plane, it is sent not to the NWS, but to Air Force employees who then quality check it. It is the Air Force, not the NWS, that then distributes this to the National Hurricane Center (NHC) and the rest of us.

The time of the product is not the time that the product is disseminated; it is the time of the center fix of the storm. There have been some instances when Air Force personnel, while checking the data, saw critical information and let the forecaster at NHC know. Is this what Smith was objecting to? I certainly do not want the forecaster to have to wait for perilous information simply because it is not yet available to a private company.

Smith also stated that this bill would force the NWS to release 100 percent of its data in real time. The NWS already does so. The problem with this bill is that it would force the NWS to release data only to companies like his.

The bill is very specific in its language. "The Secretary of Commerce shall not provide, or assist other entities in providing, a product or service ... that is or could be provided by the private sector …"

Under this bill, the only information that the NWS would be able to directly distribute (other than severe weather information) is products that the private sector is unable or unwilling to produce or products that are required by international treaties. That means no daily forecasts (even forecasts of inclement weather), no radar or satellite images and no observations. The same goes for NOAA Weather Radio and the Emergency Managers Weather Information Network. These systems would no longer be available if this bill were to become law.

Smith drew a correlation to FedEx and UPS, "FedEx could never compete if the Postal Service delivered packages free." This is a very interesting analogy, but just not relevant. You see, FedEx has its own collection and distribution network. FedEx has its own fleet of planes and trucks that will pick up and deliver packages right to your door.

The commercial weather companies do not launch their own weather satellites; nor do they have a system of radars or take routine surface and upper- air observations. No, you and I pay for that with our tax dollars.

Smith's company is taking this data for free and selling it back to people who are willing to pay for it. If he wants to send up a weather satellite and deploy a system of radars and keep it from me because it is proprietary, I have no problem with that. But do not tell Americans that they cannot have the information for which they have already paid.

Dan Sobein is vice president of the National Weather Service Employees Organization. http://www.nwseo.org
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#2 Postby loon » Mon Jun 06, 2005 2:47 pm

and the CEO/founder of WeatherData Inc. of Wichita, Kan.

that explains his side perfectly...The only people thinking this is a "good" idea are the people that are repackaging NWS's info and selling it.....
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#3 Postby x-y-no » Mon Jun 06, 2005 2:58 pm

I was fuming mad and about to post a long refutation of the first piece, but then I saw that Mr. Sobein had already written a very able refutation. :-)

I'll just say this: The accusation that the NWS witheld data on Charley's intensification for 34 minutes to organize a conference is a vile slur - an unacceptable lie.

Jan
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#4 Postby dhweather » Mon Jun 06, 2005 3:01 pm

Smith's company is taking this data for free and selling it back to people who are willing to pay for it. If he wants to send up a weather satellite and deploy a system of radars and keep it from me because it is proprietary, I have no problem with that. But do not tell Americans that they cannot have the information for which they have already paid.






I agree!!
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Blah blah blah...

#5 Postby Windspeed » Mon Jun 06, 2005 3:16 pm

Ensure that the NWS produces accurate data.


Oh for sure! Smith would not want HIS products to be inaccurate, would he? :roll:

That also leads me to one of the best points against privatizing weather data and forecast products. Who is going to ensure these private companies are producing accurate forecasts? The goverment regulates its agencies. Private sectors regulate themselves.

I wrote a letter to my senator, you can read it here.
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#6 Postby alicia-w » Mon Jun 06, 2005 5:31 pm

I sent a letter to Senator Nelson and he replied. As a taxpayer, you should be outraged that you're paying for this and may not get the benefit. Wonder what lobbyist crawled into whose pocket for this one.....
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SouthernWx

#7 Postby SouthernWx » Mon Jun 06, 2005 6:03 pm

loon wrote:and the CEO/founder of WeatherData Inc. of Wichita, Kan.

that explains his side perfectly...The only people thinking this is a "good" idea are the people that are repackaging NWS's info and selling it.....


My feelings exactly...the only folks supporting this atrocious and disgusting bill are the same loathesome greedy folks who'll profit from it.... at the EXPENSE OF WE THE PEOPLE :grrr: :grrr:

PW
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#8 Postby LAwxrgal » Mon Jun 06, 2005 6:17 pm

This isn't about competition, it's about getting accurate weather data to people as quickly as possible. Unfortunately these hacks only see the bottom line -- no dice.

:saddamjail: Instead of Saddam we should put Santorum in here.
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#9 Postby Steve » Mon Jun 06, 2005 7:48 pm

>>That also leads me to one of the best points against privatizing weather data and forecast products. Who is going to ensure these private companies are producing accurate forecasts?

You can rest assured that with the GOP and corporate over people mentality, private entities would be shielded from any culpability, and if there was any, your damages would be capped at about $500 - or enough to buy a bicycle, tent and a few gallons of water.

Libertarians would argue that the free market would eventually weed out the scum from the quality. And that might be true. But hurricanes are fickle and today's goat could be tomorrow's squirrel finding the proverbial nut.

I *(#*%(* hate Santorum and corporate welfare.

/rant off

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#10 Postby Air Force Met » Mon Jun 06, 2005 8:25 pm

The only thing I agree about in the bill is that they (the NWS) should make ready all data collected as it is collected). It kinda ticks me off when they hold onto data. I have decisions to make for a base and a squadron of aircraft, plus another customer (5th Army) and their needs for TX and LA. The faster the data gets to me...the more time I have to make a decision. Sometimes a few minutes make a big difference.
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If you can't get it...

#11 Postby Steve Cosby » Tue Jun 07, 2005 8:19 am

Air Force Met wrote:The only thing I agree about in the bill is that they (the NWS) should make ready all data collected as it is collected). It kinda ticks me off when they hold onto data. I have decisions to make for a base and a squadron of aircraft, plus another customer (5th Army) and their needs for TX and LA. The faster the data gets to me...the more time I have to make a decision. Sometimes a few minutes make a big difference.


If you can't get it, the NWS really is in trouble. There should never be a delay between agencies involved in national security. Maybe Santorum is on to something after all? (just severely misdirected, I suppose)
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#12 Postby x-y-no » Tue Jun 07, 2005 8:31 am

Air Force Met wrote:The only thing I agree about in the bill is that they (the NWS) should make ready all data collected as it is collected). It kinda ticks me off when they hold onto data. I have decisions to make for a base and a squadron of aircraft, plus another customer (5th Army) and their needs for TX and LA. The faster the data gets to me...the more time I have to make a decision. Sometimes a few minutes make a big difference.


In his reply above, Mr. Sobein said:
Smith also stated that this bill would force the NWS to release 100 percent of its data in real time. The NWS already does so.


Do you have direct knowledge that this isn't true?
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#13 Postby Air Force Met » Tue Jun 07, 2005 9:55 am

x-y-no wrote: Do you have direct knowledge that this isn't true?


Sure. Since this is a tropical forum, we will use tropical data for an example. There are numerous model runs that are run at the NHCthat are not released to the public. There may be a part of the Air Force community that gets this data...but it is not spread to the rest of us. With the exception of some homeland security mesoscale weather models (run with 1m-3m resolution), I have the same access to models that you all have. I know the NWS runs variations on tropical models and that data is not released. There is also a lot of real-time satellite info that they have available to them that is not generally released.

And of course there is the recon issue. I've been on recon aircraft (as an observer...tag along) and there is a lot of info the NHC gets that is not immediately released. IE the recon report with Charley last year. They do hold back some recon reports instead of releasing them real-time. The JAAWIN website I use (Joint Air Force and Army Weather Information Network) is not real friendly or updated in a timely manner, so I get data in the same places most of you get it...on the web.

Bottom line...there is a lot of data that is used "in-house" that is not released. The computer models alone that are run on hurricanes...the satellite images...the recon. This is just the NHC.

It's been a running joke in our unit for years that if we had the access to the same amount of data that the NHC has, we would out forecast them most of the time, since our track record against them is pretty good now. We have to give our customers (military) a "No-joke" forecast 5 days in advance. Over the past 17 years, our main military customer (5th Army) has been very pleased with our honesty with them...especially during the instances where our forecast track differs from the the NHC (which does not happen in every instance...but occasionlly)...like Brett in 1999...when we were forecasting a S TX landfall from the beginning and the NHC was putting it into Tampico. So...any extra bit of data to help support our forecasts would be greatly appreciated.
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#14 Postby x-y-no » Tue Jun 07, 2005 10:24 am

Air Force Met wrote:
x-y-no wrote: Do you have direct knowledge that this isn't true?


Sure. Since this is a tropical forum, we will use tropical data for an example. There are numerous model runs that are run at the NHCthat are not released to the public. There may be a part of the Air Force community that gets this data...but it is not spread to the rest of us. With the exception of some homeland security mesoscale weather models (run with 1m-3m resolution), I have the same access to models that you all have. I know the NWS runs variations on tropical models and that data is not released. There is also a lot of real-time satellite info that they have available to them that is not generally released.


OK, you get no argument from me here. That data should be released in as timely a way as possible.

And of course there is the recon issue. I've been on recon aircraft (as an observer...tag along) and there is a lot of info the NHC gets that is not immediately released. IE the recon report with Charley last year. They do hold back some recon reports instead of releasing them real-time. The JAAWIN website I use (Joint Air Force and Army Weather Information Network) is not real friendly or updated in a timely manner, so I get data in the same places most of you get it...on the web


The explanation I have seen several times is that the Air Force does quality checking on the recon data and that's what takes time. I have no personal knowledge of how true that is.

Bottom line...there is a lot of data that is used "in-house" that is not released. The computer models alone that are run on hurricanes...the satellite images...the recon. This is just the NHC.


To the extent that this is so, I agree that this needs to be corrected.
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#15 Postby drudd1 » Tue Jun 07, 2005 10:34 am

I agree that this indeed needs to be corrected. It's unfortunate that Santorum's motive isn't getting the weather to the people in a timely manner. If it was, the attempt to correct this wouldn't be tagged to a bill that will line the pockets of the private businesses he is currently in bed with.
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#16 Postby Air Force Met » Tue Jun 07, 2005 10:49 am

x-y-no wrote:
The explanation I have seen several times is that the Air Force does quality checking on the recon data and that's what takes time. I have no personal knowledge of how true that is.


I'm talking after they send the data to the NHC. When I have been on the recon plane...after the dropsounde data is received, they send it. I did not see them go over and over the data gain to make sure it is accurate. There is too much going on to do that. The data that is received back is the data you get. They send that to the NHC. The NHC then releases it. That is what I am speaking about.
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