Would YOU leave at "landfall minus 50 hours"?

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Ixolib
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Would YOU leave at "landfall minus 50 hours"?

#1 Postby Ixolib » Thu May 19, 2005 10:50 pm

In the story (quoted) below, I've highlighted some areas that got my attention.

In the first one, it seems everyone EXCEPT the weather and TPC experts were involved in making the plan.

In the next highlight, it seems extreme credibility is being put into the 5- and 3-day forecast. Perhaps credible, but perhaps not - as history has shown. (I wonder how many storms have actually made the precise landfall based on the 5- or 3-day forecast? Maybe a lot?? Enough to evacuate thousands 50 hours ahead of time??)

In the third and fourth highlight, the whole issue of extreme pre-departure still has me bugged. If I were to do a poll, how many would actually evacuate ANYWHERE when a storm is still 50 hours away??? (I wonder how many storms have actually made the precise landfall based on projections when it was still 50 hours out in the ocean or GOM) A lot can - AND DOES - happen in 50 hours with the track of a hurricane. The "egg on the face" issue is what will come back to haunt them when they try to do it (the evacuation) again and no one leaves because the first time they left, the storm landfalled elsewhere, leaving the perception that they left for nothing. (human nature...)

And in the fifth highlight, this Mitchell guy is blaming the poor WX guy for the gridlock. That's about like blaming the dairy because you let your milk sour in the fridge. Bob Breck may be a bit of a pain with his style, but his weather sense is "usually" spot-on.

Anyway, I guess I'm just bugged because it seems the 50-hour evacuation concept is just plain goofy. Not to mention the 72-hour staging period!! Way too many variables come into play in that time period for this plan to have any real merit. Maybe they're just thinking something is better than nothing??

p.s. - Did Ivan "really" make landfall in the Mobile, AL area?? :wink:

New hurricane evacuation plan outlined
By TED McMANUS
The Daily Review

Lessons learned during the harried evacuation of the Gulf Coast for Hurricane Ivan last September are being used in a (Louisiana) statewide plan outlined Friday at the Troop C headquarters in Gray.

While Ivan eventually made landfall in the Mobile, Ala., area, its unpredictable path sent hundreds of thousands in coastal Louisiana and Mississippi scurrying haphazardly to the west, clogging U.S. 90 through St. Mary Parish.

Maj. Ralph Mitchell of the Louisiana State Police reminded regional emergency preparedness officials and members of the media Friday that a series of decisions made during Ivan’s approach resulted in a situation that state police are determined not to let happen again.

Mitchell, who was Troop C’s commander during the last evacuation, pointed out that the gridlock on hurricane evacuation routes was due primarily to the lack of a statewide plan that local officials and residents could use in making the best evacuation decisions.

“There wasn’t anything to fall back on before,” he said, adding that 1.5 million residents of southeast Louisiana are impacted when a hurricane is headed this way.

The new plan unveiled Friday was developed over the past several months by the State Police, the Louisiana Office of Emergency Preparedness and Office of Homeland Security.

Among its major components is educating the public about the urgency of leaving the coastal area in an orderly and early, fashion.

Weather forecasters have the technology to accurately predict hurricane landfall up to five days in advance, Mitchell said. That accuracy is even better three days from landfall, he pointed out.

Under the new plan, preliminary staging operations would begin 72 hours in advance, which will allow emergency responders ample time to begin issuing evacuation orders 50 hours before hurricane-force winds are felt along the coast. Mitchell said officials probably will err on the side of caution by moving people out earlier. But he said officials should not regret making such a mistake.

“I’d rather have egg on my face than water up to my waist,” Mitchell said, adding that he was not an alarmist but that he and other officials should adopt a “better safe than sorry” philosophy.

“I’d rather do that a 100 times than have a civic center full of body bags,” he said.

Even with earlier evacuation and the use of “contraflow” on major arteries — dedicating all lanes of highway to outbound traffic for several hours — congestion is inevitable, Mitchell admitted.

The sheer volume of traffic created by an evacuation of the metropolitan New Orleans area will clog traffic at some point.

“The issue with contraflow is that we can always dump traffic into the system and get them out quicker but eventually all that traffic has to be funneled back into two lanes,” he said. “Where do you suggest we do that … Lafayette, Houston, Los Angeles?”

Even under the new plan, he pointed out, congestion will occur, he said.

“To expect no traffic jams and no congestion is not realistic,” he said, pointing out that the plan is limited by the number of roads that can be feasibly designated as evacuation routes.

The Hurricane Ivan evacuation resulted in “horror stories” of a five-hour trip to Lafayette, eight hours to Lake Charles and 10-plus hours to Houston.

Officials are optimistic the plan will cut down on evacuation time, but it’s also a plan that can be modified.

“It’s a very flexible plan that we can move around to accomplish the things that we need to do,” said Capt. Val Penouilh, Troop C commander.

A major component of the evacuation plan is delineating what areas are to be evacuated at what times.

It consists of phases, from 50, 40, 30 and six hours in advance of a Category 3 or higher storm whose forecast path is projected to hit the area. The plan also includes a series of tasks and procedures to be implemented within each phase.

In the Morgan City area, residents must evacuate to the north via La. 70 or the west by using U.S. 90.

For the Houma-Thibodaux area, primary evacuation routes are La. 56, La. 57, La. 1, La. 24, La. 20 and U.S. 90, said local law enforcement officials.

But they will use any available transportation options should they prove effective in getting residents out of harm’s way.

Mitchell said earlier evacuation orders in the metro New Orleans area and points south of the bend in the Mississippi River will allow those residents to evacuate in a more orderly manner on Interstate Highways 55, 59 and 10 without creating the kind of gridlock that occurred on U.S. 90 during Ivan.

“Any time an evacuation is ordered for New Orleans, it seriously affects our ability to get out of town,” he admitted.

Using U.S. 90 as an alternate route should not be considered because access by local traffic cannot be effectively controlled, Mitchell said, because U.S. 90 is not a limited access, interstate-quality four-lane.

Mitchell said many New Orleans residents heeded the advice of television weather forecaster Bob Breck, who advised evacuees to use U.S. 90 rather than the designated interstate systems on which access can be controlled at crucial “valve” points.

The detailed plan outlined Friday features virtually all components related to hurricane evacuation.

It calls for the early activation of a traffic command center to review traffic status, monitoring traffic on major routes to help officials decide whether to divert traffic away from those routes, implementing strategic signals to allow for more efficient travel on major routes and providing continuous information to the media on problem areas to relay to motorists.

Law enforcement officials stressed that public participation will be a key to the plan’s success. An awareness campaign to help foster that participation will begin soon.

One element will be the wide distribution of a map to aid motorists in making better decisions about evacuation options.

Exercises involving state agencies and law enforcement in local parishes will be held to test the plan, dates for which have not yet been announced.
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#2 Postby Radar » Thu May 19, 2005 11:16 pm

I also live along the MS Gulf Coast and I remember the mess we had last year when they evacuated Coastal LA, MS and AL all at the same time. However, 50 hours in advance does seem very unrealistic. Can you imagine what kind of an impact this would have on the local economy shutting down cities the size of Mobile, Biloxi and New Orleans 3 days before a storm "may" hit. Not to mention the looters that would hide out and try to ransack every vacant business and house that they could, are they going to call in the national guard even before a hurricane strikes to patrol our neighborhoods? I dont think the civil defense offices are looking at the bigger picture here. It takes days for the average citizen to prepare for a storm (buying supplies, boarding up windows, etc...)... What would be the impact on residents that live pay check to pay check if they had to leave their jobs and homes and sit up in a hotel for 2 days even before a storm hits. I dont think when you are looking at a evacuation the magnatude of Hurricane Ivan there is a easy solution but it is evident when a Cat 4 hurricane is looming out in the Gulf most people do take it seriously and they do expect horrendous delays and long travel times on the road.
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#3 Postby depotoo » Thu May 19, 2005 11:18 pm

one of our neighbors houses that had left for frances this past season the looters tried to get to it. another neighbor saw them and chased them off.
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#4 Postby SeaBrz_FL » Thu May 19, 2005 11:19 pm

Hi Ixolib -

Very nicely written post!

As for me, and family, we will make the decision to evacuate when needed. Last year, most in my Cape Canaveral neighborhood chose to stay for Jeanne, but I know that's because they were broke and/or tired.

I am a (49 yr old) native Floridian, but I don't live in the panhandle so I know your challenges are different than mine on the East Coast. We are still tired (and broke) and not happy that this season has started early.

Ivan was such a DESTROYER and I hope and pray that was your last for another decade or two. Look forward to discussing more on the forums.

Tropical hugs,
Jody
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#5 Postby dhweather » Fri May 20, 2005 9:35 am

Evacuation is going to remain a major problem for southeast LA all of Mississippi, and Alabama.

Coastal Mississippi has Highway 49 going North from the coast to Hattiesburg as a primary evacuation route. I-59, from New Orleans to Hattiesburg will fill with Southeast Louisiana evacuees. Then Mobile and Baldwin counties also have two ways out - I-65 and Highway 98, which also goes to Hattiesburg.

The lake Ponchartrain causeway is worthless for evacuation, as they have to close it for the winds and folks are only getting into more traffic
in I-12 once they cross over.

There need to be an improvement in North/South federal interstates
to facilitate evacuation of the New Orleans to Mobile area.

If the government can fund Boston's "big dig" to ease traffic flows in that area, certainly they can do the same down here.
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#6 Postby FloridaGirl » Fri May 20, 2005 10:11 am

I live on the gulf coast of Florida and have experienced several hurricanes. We did not leave during Erin, but did leave for Opal and the experience of sitting in gridlock on the interstate while the storm was bearing down on us was completely unnerving and I swore that I would stay put in the future. Since Opal, our Emergency Management asked that everyone stay home if possible to stop the fiasco of being trapped on the roads during the storm.

We did stay for Ivan and was terrified, but at least I know my house will hold up for a category 3 storm, anything stronger than that, I may consider leaving again, but will weigh that strongly before getting trapped on the highway again.
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#7 Postby wxman57 » Fri May 20, 2005 10:48 am

FloridaGirl wrote:We did stay for Ivan and was terrified, but at least I know my house will hold up for a category 3 storm, anything stronger than that, I may consider leaving again, but will weigh that strongly before getting trapped on the highway again.


FloridaGirl, you'd better check out the Ivan post storm report:

http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/2004ivan.shtml?

There were no observations of Cat 3 winds in the Pensacola/Ft. Walton Beach area with Ivan. Ivan was weakening very quickly as it moved ashore. SUSTAINED (1 minute wind) in Pensacola was measured at 85-95 mph - that's Cat 1 strength. I'm sure there were gusts to Cat 2-3 strength, however. The eastern core of Ivan moved ashore west of Pensacola, near the border with Alabama.

So your home DID NOT experience a Cat 3 hurricane. If you live near the beach in an area prone to storm surge, then you need to evacuate for ANY hurricane, even a strong TS. Remember, we cannot forecast intensity very well at all. The Cat 2 hurricane one hour could be a Cat 4 six hours later (remember Charley??). If even a moderate TS encounters low wind shear and warm water in the Gulf, it can intensify very quickly to a powerful hurricane. Overnight, in fact. So don't plan on hanging around next time a hurricane approaches.
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#8 Postby Agua » Fri May 20, 2005 11:30 am

wxman57 wrote:There were no observations of Cat 3 winds in the Pensacola/Ft. Walton Beach area with Ivan. Ivan was weakening very quickly as it moved ashore. SUSTAINED (1 minute wind) in Pensacola was measured at 85-95 mph - that's Cat 1 strength. I'm sure there were gusts to Cat 2-3 strength, however. The eastern core of Ivan moved ashore west of Pensacola, near the border with Alabama.

So your home DID NOT experience a Cat 3 hurricane.


Great point. That's a dangerous perception problem with folks who have had a 2 or 3 landfall somewhere close to their area previously without taking the actual eyewall. The fury of those storms in the eyewall is a different kind of animal.
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#9 Postby BayouVenteux » Fri May 20, 2005 11:54 am

wxman57's reply to FlaGirl serves to illustrate one of the reasons it's so difficult to convince many people to evacuate coastal areas, as residents' judgements on what constititutes a "strong" storm are colored by both their personal experiences and by the generalities of media reporting of the event. If, for example, someone in Ft. Walton or Destin reads or hears reports that "Category 3 Hurricane Ivan hit the northwest Florida panhandle", and relates that to the winds and surge they experienced in their particular locality, the next time a storm threatens they may be of the opinion that, "hey, I've been through a Cat 3, I can ride this one out", which could be a potentially fatal mistake. Add to this the fact that from a wind field scale /wind distribution standpoint, these storms are like snowflakes––each one is unique. One could have 2 storms of identical intensity designation make landfall in the same location on separate occasions and the conditions experienced in your location could be significantly different with each event.
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Gridlock

#10 Postby bevgo » Fri May 20, 2005 2:03 pm

I evaced north instead of going to Texas from the New Orleans area last year since I worked in Chalmette. I spent 7 hours on the road for what is usually a 3 1/2 hour trip. My son went to Houston with his girlfriend and her family and they spent 14 hours on the road. Gridlock is going to happen because there are so many people trying to get out the roads cannot handle it. If they build enough roads we will have nothing but roads.
I don't know what the answer is but I will still leave and avoid the storm and will take my chance with traffic again. Of course I did not get caught in the storm on the highway like others. That would be really bad. I know the trick is to leave early but when your business remains open and you are required to be at work then what can you do? My daughter left the morning I did (I left at noon) and her trip was only 4 hours. Not a problem. Of course going north poses its own risks.I have a great picture of a giant oak down blocking assecc to a red cross shelter in my home town. I was going to try and attach it but am unable to figure it out.
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#11 Postby Derek Ortt » Fri May 20, 2005 2:51 pm

Fl Girl,

time to be a bit harsh, but right to the point here

your attitude was shared by many west of Pensacola who survived Opal. They thought they survived a cat 3 when they really survived a tropical storm. They're all <b>DEAD</b>. Those that remained on the coast in Ivan simply died. If you make the mistake of staying in a cat 2 where you take a direct hit by the strongest section, much less a 3, you'll join them
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#12 Postby dhweather » Fri May 20, 2005 3:03 pm

WORD Derek!
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#13 Postby Ixolib » Fri May 20, 2005 5:21 pm

Derek Ortt wrote:Fl Girl,

time to be a bit harsh, but right to the point here

your attitude was shared by many west of Pensacola who survived Opal. They thought they survived a cat 3 when they really survived a tropical storm. They're all <b>DEAD</b>. Those that remained on the coast in Ivan simply died. If you make the mistake of staying in a cat 2 where you take a direct hit by the strongest section, much less a 3, you'll join them


In terms of a decision, certainly being in a surge-prone area would absolutely 100% be reason enough for evacuation - regardless of the category. But I believe many homes and communities can (and do) survive the winds alone. Not all, but many. In fact, for most of those west of Pensacola who are now DEAD, I would imagine overwhelmingly they are in that condition because of the surge and wind-driven seas, not because of the wind alone. Again, the key word being "most". And yes, the tornadoes/mini-vortices do exist, but not on the scale of a wall of water.
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#14 Postby yzerfan » Fri May 20, 2005 6:25 pm

Derek Ortt wrote:Fl Girl,

time to be a bit harsh, but right to the point here

your attitude was shared by many west of Pensacola who survived Opal. They thought they survived a cat 3 when they really survived a tropical storm. They're all <b>DEAD</b>. Those that remained on the coast in Ivan simply died. If you make the mistake of staying in a cat 2 where you take a direct hit by the strongest section, much less a 3, you'll join them


They're dead because they either lived in a waterfront neighborhood five feet above sea level and didn't heed a mandatory evacuation order, or got killed by tornadoes 100+ miles away from where the eye made landfall. Not because of wind damage to their homes.

And Ft. Walton Beach doesn't have a beach, and has relatively little residental development south of US 98. (surge doesn't go much north of 98 even during bad storms) The residental core of town is significantly inland and not so much in surge zones compared to many coastal FL cities.
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#15 Postby Derek Ortt » Fri May 20, 2005 6:51 pm

but they stayed for the same reasons.

They thought they had survived a cat 3 storm in Opal, which only brought TS conditions to the area and the winds were offshore, which meant that the surge was restricted solely to the barrier islands as the surge was strictly due to the wave action.

Because of that utter stupidity (no other way to put it), we had more strom surge deaths during Ivan than we have had in the 34 years previously, for all storms combined
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#16 Postby Matt-hurricanewatcher » Fri May 20, 2005 6:54 pm

Ivan pulled a Lili. The wind shear elogated the system. In the systems weaken.
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#17 Postby Ixolib » Fri May 20, 2005 8:15 pm

Derek Ortt wrote:but they stayed for the same reasons.

They thought they had survived a cat 3 storm in Opal, which only brought TS conditions to the area and the winds were offshore, which meant that the surge was restricted solely to the barrier islands as the surge was strictly due to the wave action.

Because of that utter stupidity (no other way to put it), we had more strom surge deaths during Ivan than we have had in the 34 years previously, for all storms combined


Wow!! That IS a sobering statistic. Seems to me this single issue ought to soon become a major special on one of the networks. Could be titled, "The Psychology of Hurricane Evacuation - why humans do what they do". Might open some eyes to this whole concept of comparing one survival with the potential for another...
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