Has there ever been a 200 mph sustained wind cane/typhoon?

[logybogy]

What's the most powerful tropical system on record based on sustained wind speeds?

[crazycajuncane]

Is your real question.... Is Frances going to have sustained winds of 200?

I doubt it.

[logybogy]

When we are talking about the possibility of a Cat 5 storm, I'm curious to know what the history is.

What are the strongest Cat 5 storms on record, both storms that made landfall at Cat 5 storms and were Cat 5 storms over water?

[crazycajuncane]

I know Andrew was a Cat 5 when it made landfall as "one of" the strongest storms ever. I don't believe sustained winds got over 160 though. I've just never heard of winds close to 200 mph.

[NorthGaWeather]

Andrew had 165 sustained I believe and Camille was 190 MPH.

[btsgmdad]

A quick Google search shows Typhoon Tip has the strongest storm on a record with estimated winds of 190mph. Also, Hurricane Mitch was listed has having winds of 190mph in 1998. Camille's legendary status was gust of 205mph. Anyone else with any other info...

[NorthGaWeather]

A quick Google search shows Typhoon Tip has the strongest storm on a record with estimated winds of 190mph. Also, Hurricane Mitch was listed has having winds of 190mph in 1998. Camille's legendary status was gust of 205mph. Anyone else with any other info...

Camille gust were 225.

[WeatherNole]

Gilbert - 1988 - was sustained at 185 mph in the Cariabbean. That was the same advisory as when the pressure bottomed out at 888 mb!!

By the way - Gilbert stayed below 900 mb for at least 12 straight hours. Incredible.


Mike

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[PTPatrick]

From what I have read, and having talked to a people when I was FSU studying meteorology(for the year that I did it)...any measurements that high are basically good guesses. We shall never really know what the true exact sustained wind were in those storms because they damage the instruments before they get that high...or the eye inevitably goes just far enough away from the observation sight. One might say that pressure is the best indicator, but even that can get messy as some canes pressures are lower than their winds would suggest and vice versa. Basically you have to look at anything much above approaching 180 mph and pressure below 900 mlb as BAD

[AL Chili Pepper]

Probably both the 1935 Labor Day storm and Camille had 200+ MPH sustained winds. I think the 190 MPH for Camille was an estimate. With a storm surge of over 24 feet, I think it's a safe bet that it was over 200.

[Air Force Met]

Gilbert - 1988 - was sustained at 185 mph in the Cariabbean. That was the same advisory as when the pressure bottomed out at 888 mb!!

Mike

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I remember the interview when the NOAA P-3 crew that got 882 mb at the peak of the eyewall cycle...and the NHC said "you guys are nuts." The little dropsonde geek said "but WE believe it!"

I also remember getting that recon report. I was at a student chapter meeting of the AMS (TAMSCAMS). I remember seeing 199 kts as the flight level winds. We almost passed out.

[SunnyThoughts]

I visited a site on the net concerning camille, reporting that 2 miles inland from the gulf...water was up to the roofs of houses..(from the storm surge) unreal!

[mobilebay]

Gilbert - 1988 - was sustained at 185 mph in the Cariabbean. That was the same advisory as when the pressure bottomed out at 888 mb!!

Mike

--

I remember the interview when the NOAA P-3 crew that got 882 mb at the peak of the eyewall cycle...and the NHC said "you guys are nuts." The little dropsonde geek said "but WE believe it!"

I also remember getting that recon report. I was at a student chapter meeting of the AMS (TAMSCAMS). I remember seeing 199 kts as the flight level winds. We almost passed out.

I believe I seen that on a NOVA video on Public television. Am I correct?

[Stratosphere747]

1) GILBERT - September 14, 1988 - 185 MPH/26.22 inches (888 mb.)
2) ALLEN - August 7, 1980 - 190 MPH/26.54 inches (899 mb.)
3) CAMILLE - August 16, 1969 - 190 MPH/26.73 inches (905 mb.)
3) MITCH - October 26, 1998 - 180 MPH/26.73 inches (905 mb.)
4) JANET - September 28, 1955 - 175 MPH/26.96 inches (914 mb.)

These are the big ones...I have searched and researched.....Janet is very intriguing....To see the damage that she did...

[Ixolib]

Probably both the 1935 Labor Day storm and Camille had 200+ MPH sustained winds. I think the 190 MPH for Camille was an estimate. With a storm surge of over 24 feet, I think it's a safe bet that it was over 200.

...and to think only two days prior to landfall, Camille was just becoming a minimal hurricane!

[frankthetank]

a dropsonde measured 870mb with Typhoon Tip... on oct 12, 1979...

i also see hurricane Inez had a wind speed of 197MPH @ 8000ft...sept 28, 1966...

[SouthernWx]

Based on the catastrophic damage scene afterwords and comparisms to other extremely intense but compact cat-4/5 hurricanes, it's likely the infamous 1935 Labor Day hurricane in the Florida Keys had sustained winds near or exceeding 200 mph.

Extrapolate from 922 mb (Andrew's landfall pressure) down to 892 mb (1935 hurricane when crossing the middle Keys), and the estimated sustained wind speed is 170-175 kts (196-201 mph)...and the Labor Day hurricane was even SMALLER than Andrew, meaning a tighter gradient in the eyewall and stronger winds.

In my research, it appears the 1935 Labor Day hurricane was similar in size to both hurricane Charley and Iris...both extremely small but violent hurricanes. Hurricane force winds only extended out 15-20 miles from the tiny eye of the Labor Day hurricane....causing complete devastation over a narrow 20 mile wide path through the middle Florida Keys, but only gale force at Homestead and Key West.

At landfall, hurricane Charley had 130 kts (150 mph) sustained winds with a central pressure of 941 mb. Extrapolation down to 892 mb again gives an estimated value of 170-175 kts (196-201 mph). In 2001, tiny hurricane Iris slammed into Belize with 125 kt winds and a landfall pressure of 950 mb....extrapolation to 892 mb again gives a sustained wind estimate in the same range (195-200 mph).

In addition, reports in 1935 by hurricane survivors, rescue personnel...and structural engineers examing the damage zone were stunned by the intensity of the winds. It was reported the damage scene on Lower Matecumbe and Long Key resembled the aftermath of an airliner crash....or a violent (F4) tornado. If sustained winds were indeed 195-200 mph, then it's safe to assume peak gusts in the eyewall were likely 230 mph (200 kts) or higher....the same type of wind speed found in a F-4 tornado.

The result was incredible damage...as well as gruesome scenes where deaths occurred.
Among the reports were bodies found beheaded, dismembered (arms and legs missing), and even a few reports of human skeletons found in trees or floating in the mangroves only wearing leather belts and shoes....literally "sandblasted to death" by wind-driven bits of sand, coral, and other debris.

The gruesome scene sounds very much like the aftermath of violent tornadoes I've researched such as Jarrell, Texas (May 1997) and Tanner, Alabama (April 1974).

In all likelyhood, the 1935 Labor Day hurricane possessed stronger winds at landfall than any other Atlantic hurricane of record....200 mph or more.

Note: Hurricane Allen had a lower central pressure than the 1935 Keys hurricane, but just as hurricane Allen (1980), was a large hurricane....so the pressure gradient in the eyewall resulted in lower wind speeds (I've spoken to John Hope and other former NHC forecasters about this subject several times, and they all agree...the Labor Day hurricane of 1935 was stronger "windwise" than hurricane Allen, Gilbert, or Camille).

[KeyLargoDave]

Fantastic post about the Labor Day Hurricane. I live about 25 miles up the road from where the center crossed. I've seen the mortality maps of where the 400+ bodies were found, some as far as Cape Sable on the mainland. I've been to many Memorial Day observations at the Hurricane monument in Islamorada, where veterans remember the hundreds of WWI vets, who had been living in work camps and were stranded and killed when the rescue train washed into the bay, and Upper Keys families remember their relatives who perished on Upper and Lower Matecumbe Keys.

On the topic of max winds, didn't Fujita visit Miami after Andrew and say he saw F4-type damage from wind vortices? Maybe not "sustained" winds, but I think many interpret the Andrew damage as showing winds over 200, maybe 225 mph. I've read many similar suggestions about the Labor Day Hurricane.

But we also have to remember that in a category 1 or even just a tropical storm, if a tornado hits your house, it might as well have been a Cat 5 Hurricane.

[vbhoutex]

If I remember correctly the 190 mph sustained with Camille was recorded just off shore on an oil rig and the wind gauge at Kessler AFB in Biloxi recorded a gust of 220 mph before it failed. As far as the surge being 2 miles inland up to the roofs, I did not see it but I do believe it. I saw houses that far inland that had been lifted completely off their foundations and move 10 feet-no pictures of it I saw it.

[NorthGaWeather]

Lets not forget Camille here, she likely had winds over 200 MPH and had a very tight gradient for such a large storm. In my opinion Camille was the strongest due to confirmed wind reports of 170 mph sustained with gust over that finally destroying the wind ob equipment. Oh and the 25 ft surge above mean tide. Homes completely underwater a couple miles inland. In 1935 you wouldn't have gotten an accurate wind estimate because any observation equipment would have been destroyed quickly. Without groundtruth you can't tell if the hurricane actually produced 200 plus winds. If an F-2 tornado is moving at 1-5 mph its gonna produce damage similar to F-4 and F-5. Also you have to look at how building and homes were built. Poor foundations and construction to the house will easily send it across the street in an F-2 tornado or Cat 3 hurricane. Debris in a Cat 1 can take body parts off, it doesn't take much speed for glass to go right thru. I'm not saying that the Labor Day hurricane was not up there in intensity but before I believe it was really over 200 I'd like to see some groundtruth, with Camille you had this confirmed.

I've even read some reports where Jarrell was probaley a strong F-4 but because of its slow movement it produced the extreme damage.