It really saddens me........

opera ghost · #21 Postby **opera ghost** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 11:33 am

See Amanzi- I disagree (respectfully). If Athiests can find any kind of family or peaceful meaning in a christian holiday- then good for them. If a christian holiday brings thier family closer together- even if they aren't celebrating the same thing you or I might be celebrating- then I think it's great. Every family needs rituals and traditions to bind them closer together- even athiests. Thiers may not be rooted in the religious aspects of the holiday- but I, for one, am happy that they use a christian holiday to bring thier family closer together.

But I was brought up to believe that Christmas wasn't about one man- be him Santa or Christ. It is greater than a simple celebration of Christ's birth. It has become greater over time- and that's a good thing in my eyes.

It's about family coming together.... Celebrating love, peace, and happiness. It celebrates a ritualistic giving of gifts to those whom we love- and want to make happy. The wisemen gave gifts to the baby Christ... I was raised to beleive that they were given in love and happiness at his presence. So in my family presents have always been about the love and happiness that the people around you give to you... and giving something back.

But I'm a strange Christian. I light the candles for Chanukah because I respect the tradition and find meaning in it's message. I would hope that athiests who celebrate Christmas would respect the tradition and find thier own meaning in the celebration.

In my experience- they do. It's a time for gathering, a time for love, a time for giving from the heart. Everyone needs a "Christmas" whether they are Athiests, Jewish, Muslem... or whatever. Some have it at different times of the year and with different names... but the spirit is the same.

GalvestonDuck · #22 Postby **GalvestonDuck** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 11:52 am

Getting sidetracked a bit, I've always wondered where do we get that there were three wise men? It doesn't say in the Bible just how many wise men there were, only that they brought gold, frankencense, and myrhh, which would have been three items. So do we assume each one brought one thing?

How come the wise men are depicted in some Nativity scenes? The shepherds went to Bethelem that night and saw baby Jesus laying in the manger according to the second chapter of Luke. However, when the wise men went, they went into "the house" and saw "the child" (Matthew 2). Could he have been older by the time they got there?

Just wondering.

Lindaloo · #23 Postby **Lindaloo** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 1:42 pm

The three wise men are the ones that came bearing the gifts for baby Jesus.

"We know from the Bible that wise men came from the east, that they followed a star to Bethlehem to find the Christ child, and that they brought him gold, and frankincense and myrrh."

http://www.donnasholidaysentiments.com/wisemen.html

Bron... that was an excellent post to which I agree 100%!!

OG, you may think that Christmas is all about family getting together. But, it is about Christ.. not gifts, family nor any of the above mentioned.

GalvestonDuck · #24 Postby **GalvestonDuck** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 1:59 pm

I'm not doubting there were wise men...I just don't get why we say that there were three or that they saw him as a baby, lying in a manger.

In the second chapter of the Gospel according to Matthew, he wrote:1 Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,
2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.
3 When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him.
4 And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born.
5 And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet,
6 And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.
7 Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, enquired of them diligently what time the star appeared.
8 And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said, Go and search diligently for the young child; and when ye have found him, bring me word again, that I may come and worship him also.
9 When they had heard the king, they departed; and, lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was.
10 When they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceeding great joy.
11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense and myrrh.
12 And being warned of God in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way.
13 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.
14 When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:
15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.
16 Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently inquired of the wise men.
17 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying,
18 In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not.
19 But when Herod was dead, behold, an angel of the Lord appeareth in a dream to Joseph in Egypt,
20 Saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and go into the land of Israel: for they are dead which sought the young child's life.
21 And he arose, and took the young child and his mother, and came into the land of Israel.
22 But when he heard that Archelaus did reign in Judaea in the room of his father Herod, he was afraid to go thither: notwithstanding, being warned of God in a dream, he turned aside into the parts of Galilee:
23 And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene.

#25 Postby **pojo** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 2:49 pm

that is one of the required days that I will show my face at church... (I go when I can....usually it is on the holidays) Cmon, its a religious holiday and we are celebrating the birth of christ. Christmas is about family and friendship, not the greed of presents.

Josephine96 · #26 Postby **Josephine96** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 3:13 pm

I love this time of year.. I always have

Josephine96 · #27 Postby **Josephine96** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 3:13 pm

I especially like to shop with the Christmas crazies lol

opera ghost · #28 Postby **opera ghost** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 3:39 pm

Lindaloo wrote:The three wise men are the ones that came bearing the gifts for baby Jesus.

"We know from the Bible that wise men came from the east, that they followed a star to Bethlehem to find the Christ child, and that they brought him gold, and frankincense and myrrh."

http://www.donnasholidaysentiments.com/wisemen.html

Bron... that was an excellent post to which I agree 100%!!

OG, you may think that Christmas is all about family getting together. But, it is about Christ.. not gifts, family nor any of the above mentioned.

It is to you at the very least.
It's different to me.

Josephine96 · #29 Postby **Josephine96** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 3:41 pm

I'm not being greedy cause I go to church too. I just like to shop and be at the malls and all the music and all that stuff

Josephine96 · #30 Postby **Josephine96** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 3:42 pm

Smiles try to stay on my face a lot this time of year

Lindaloo · #31 Postby **Lindaloo** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 4:12 pm

opera ghost wrote:It is to you at the very least.
It's different to me.

To each his own no matter how wrong it may seem.

Amanzi · #32 Postby **Amanzi** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 4:56 pm

opera ghost wrote:See Amanzi- I disagree (respectfully). If Athiests can find any kind of family or peaceful meaning in a christian holiday- then good for them. If a christian holiday brings thier family closer together- even if they aren't celebrating the same thing you or I might be celebrating- then I think it's great. Every family needs rituals and traditions to bind them closer together- even athiests. Thiers may not be rooted in the religious aspects of the holiday- but I, for one, am happy that they use a christian holiday to bring thier family closer together.

But I was brought up to believe that Christmas wasn't about one man- be him Santa or Christ. It is greater than a simple celebration of Christ's birth. It has become greater over time- and that's a good thing in my eyes.

It's about family coming together.... Celebrating love, peace, and happiness. It celebrates a ritualistic giving of gifts to those whom we love- and want to make happy. The wisemen gave gifts to the baby Christ... I was raised to beleive that they were given in love and happiness at his presence. So in my family presents have always been about the love and happiness that the people around you give to you... and giving something back.

But I'm a strange Christian. I light the candles for Chanukah because I respect the tradition and find meaning in it's message. I would hope that athiests who celebrate Christmas would respect the tradition and find thier own meaning in the celebration.

In my experience- they do. It's a time for gathering, a time for love, a time for giving from the heart. Everyone needs a "Christmas" whether they are Athiests, Jewish, Muslem... or whatever. Some have it at different times of the year and with different names... but the spirit is the same.

I respect your opinion as we all have them.. however... Being a Christian yourself... Christ should be the main focus of your religion (otherwise you cant call yourself a CHRISTian can you?)

I have never heard a Muslim state that the birth of there prophet Mohomed was an insignificant ordeal...

Christmas IS about one Man.. that man being the son of God Jesus Christ. I am not politically correct in this issue I am Biblically correct. Which, IMHO I would rather be. If you take Christ out of Christmas all you have is a Pagan ritual, which is empty and meaningless.... Might as well rename it valentines day.

Sorry if I sound harsh... Just stating how I feel

Amanzi · #33 Postby **Amanzi** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 5:27 pm

Duck... The Bible does not state there were 3, and you are right about the "house". Scholars assume that Jesus was under the age of 2 (but not the day he was born) as Herod was after all the babies under 2. Modern culture just kind of tacked them into the nativety scene, but according to scripture it was a seperate event to the actual night of Jesus Birth.

The wise men are significant in scripture because they show prophesy fulfilled from the old Testement, that Jesus was indeed the Son of God.

opera ghost · #34 Postby **opera ghost** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 5:36 pm

You practice your religion your way- I'll practice mine my way. We'll all be happier.

Time to renew that resolution about not posting on a christian thread on S2K. It's getting pretty hard though lately.

Lindaloo · #35 Postby **Lindaloo** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 5:51 pm

opera ghost wrote:You practice your religion your way- I'll practice mine my way. We'll all be happier.

Time to renew that resolution about not posting on a christian thread on S2K. It's getting pretty hard though lately.

Your reply was not debate by any means.

Seems like there are a few that ONLY post when there is something about Bush or religion. Hmmmm...

Great post Bron... Great Post!!

blizzard · #36 Postby **blizzard** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 9:12 pm

I love the Holidays around here. But I do agree that it is way too commercialized. The one main gripe I have is the term "xmas". I even have a hard time typing it here. You will never, never see me write it that way. It is an insult to Jesus CHRIST. Sorry if I offend anyone with that statement, but I just cannot tolerate the use of that way of refering to the celebration of the birth of CHRIST.

now that I am done with my Rant, I hope that you all have a wonderful and safe Holiday Season.

Merry Christmas to all here on S2K

therock1811 · #37 Postby **therock1811** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 9:20 pm

GalvestonDuck wrote:
In the second chapter of the Gospel according to Matthew, he wrote:11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense and myrrh.

We just discussed this in church this evening...Christmas is about Christ...not presents, nothing wrong with them, but that is not what the holiday is all about...I'll leave you with this thought, what will you give Him to show that you love Him?

Lindaloo · #38 Postby **Lindaloo** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 10:26 pm

EXCELLENT Jeremy!

GulfBreezer · #39 Postby **GulfBreezer** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 10:29 pm

Bravo Jeremy!

therock1811 · #40 Postby **therock1811** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 10:36 pm

Thanks...like I said, we just discussed this earlier, it is a great thought...I think I'll put it in my sig...

It really saddens me........

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