The war on Iraq was an atrocity

[Lindaloo]

Copy and paste gets my vote! And it is probably from the Communist News Network.

[blizzard]

thanx for the link MF, I'll have to read it in the a.m.,

[southerngale]

you should wonder why America, the place of freedom and where all dreams come true is so hated worldwide.

YES I DO WONDER WHY!!!


This is from a Canadian newspaper a couple of years ago, shortly after the 9/11 terrorist attacks:

AMERICA: THE GOOD NEIGHBOR

Widespread, but only partial news coverage was given recently to a remarkable editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television commentator.

What follows is the full text of his trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional record:

"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the Earth. Germany, Japan, and to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out of the debris of War by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States.

When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.

When the earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes. Nobody helped.

The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent, warmongering Americans. I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane.

Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC-10? If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the International lines except Russia fly American planes?

Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the moon? You talk about the Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about the German technocracy, and you get automobiles.

You talk about the American technocracy, and you find men on the moon. Not once, but several times and safely home again. You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs in the store window for everybody to look at. Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from Ma and Pa at home to spend here.

When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through age, it was Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke.

I can name you 5,000 times when the Americans raced to the help other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake.

Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I am one Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles.

I hope Canada is not one of those."

Stand Proud America!

[southerngale]

Jason, that all sounds impressive, but are those your words or are you re-typing (or worse copying and pasting) what you read somewhere? If it is the latter, please document your source. I HATE it when people type long posts that they are just copying from another source. (a copyright violation?) If all that was straight from your head, I'm impressed. If it's from a 3rd source, then we need to consider the source. I don't have time to seach the internet for sources that suit me and then copy them here. I'll say what I believe in my own words and keep it to the point.

Yeah...what Ed said.

Seriously, Jason...did you type all that out or use speech-to-text software or was it copied from another source?

Painfully long. But I do hope it's your own thoughts. I would hate to see a debate between a Storm2K member and a non-credited journalist who can't respond.

Well, if it's his OWN THOUGHTS, he is behind quite a few months!!!!

Why, on Hoon’s “well hidden” account, has nothing of significance been found, even though American forces have been in the country for more than a month? There is a limit to the number of possible hiding places. US Intelligence had identified about 150 sites worth investigation, and are already believed to have visited about half, according to analysts. Not one of these has yet yielded a “smoking gun”.

[GalvestonDuck]

Yup, 'twas in fact copied and pasted from an article way back in late April. Thanks for pointing out that little touch on the timeline, SG!

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0425-01.htm

http://www.ffrd.org/terrorism-war/4.25.03.1.htm

http://www.hellblazer.com/archives/000301.html

[opera ghost]

you should wonder why America, the place of freedom and where all dreams come true is so hated worldwide.

YES I DO WONDER WHY!!!


This is from a Canadian newspaper a couple of years ago, shortly after the 9/11 terrorist attacks:

AMERICA: THE GOOD NEIGHBOR

Widespread, but only partial news coverage was given recently to a remarkable editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television commentator.

What follows is the full text of his trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional record:

"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the Earth. Germany, Japan, and to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out of the debris of War by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States.

When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.

When the earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes. Nobody helped.

The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent, warmongering Americans. I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane.

Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC-10? If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the International lines except Russia fly American planes?

Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the moon? You talk about the Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about the German technocracy, and you get automobiles.

You talk about the American technocracy, and you find men on the moon. Not once, but several times and safely home again. You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs in the store window for everybody to look at. Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from Ma and Pa at home to spend here.

When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through age, it was Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke.

I can name you 5,000 times when the Americans raced to the help other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake.

Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I am one Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles.

I hope Canada is not one of those."

Stand Proud America!

All this and more are good and even great reasons why America should focus on the homeland and take care of things internally before focusing on international rebuilding of other countries.

America is never going to get anything but "Thanks guys, but now can we have..."s from the world.

Sure it's awful. I can't even imagine what life would be like in Iraq. But how many American's go to sleep hungry? How many children cry out from abuse? Why do our crime rates continue to rise? Why aren't OUR streets safer? 658 people were murdered in LA alone in 2002. 303 have died in Iraq since President Bush declared the fighting over on May 1, 2003... 189 from hostile fire- 114 non-combat.

For every soilder who's dying in Iraq- there are dozens murdered in America. Why aren't our streets safer? Why are more American's dying in OUR California sized piece of land (not that I would ever wish for the number of fatalities in Iraq to go up)? Why are money and troops being poured into the defense of a country which most american people will never see or deal with... when our own streets aren't safe? Why is Washington DC, the capitol of the US, also the murder capitol (with the highest per capita murder rate of anywhere in the US)...

America has more important things to do at home before we can become the world's police force. Yes. People over there are dying. It's a bloody freaking shame that I'd change if I could snap my fingers and make it happen. But people over here are dying too. We have hurricanes that wipe out entire sections of NC barrier islands and produce catestrophic flooding. We have earthquakes in California. We have wild fires that rage on beyond our ability to control- and who comes to help us?

No one. And they never will. We get laughed at by other countries, people cheered when our towers fell. People spit on America and that's not likely to change.

Wouldn't you laugh at that towering giant who gets slapped around, jeered at and made fun of... and still gives hand outs to anyone who comes begging?

Sure it's a good thing to do. Horray for the moral high ground. But morals don't feed our hungry. They don't lower our crime rates. They don't rebuild communities lost to hurricanes, wildfires, tornadoes, earthquakes. They don't shelter our children or help with the bills. Knowing you hold the moral high ground is all well and good and a lot of people will take it to thier graves as the only important thing. Personally- I'd rather turn a blind eye to the murders all around me in my home town (259 in 2002) and focus on making my home as safe for my family as I can. I would turn a blind eye to the beggar on the street if I only had the money to put food in my families mouth. Most people wouldn't blame me for it... But that's not America's policy. No matter how deep our deficit runs- no matter how many Americans are living a miserable life... they're always willing to give to someone who is proclaimed to need it more.

That's just one of the reasons I object to this war. America's isn't the worlds only option. Necessity is the mother of invention. If we stopped picking up countries that fell onto hard times and let themselves rebuild and find thier own place in the world politics... perhaps... just perhaps... they might learn to live without our help- and be stronger and more respected for it. After all - who wants to have to say- I got where I am because of America's handouts? And then maybe- just maybe... we can make this country even better without wondering where the money comes from.

WMD or not- Iraq was a poor choice for the American people. It was a GREAT choice for the people of Iraq. Heck- it was a GREAT choice for the world at large. We walk in alone, spend our cash to take care of a world wide problem, and hey- after that we can't turn our backs on them so we rebuild thier country too. The world is a couple dimes richer for not having to wage the war themselves (not that a number of them have finished paying back thier rebuilding tabs from WWII) the people of Iraq are free to do what they want... and the only people who are out anything of value in the stage of world politics are... the Americans. We're still laughed at, we're still shot at in the streets of Iraq, we're STILL getting the crumbs from the rest of the world and still getting flack for ignoring the UN....

But by god- our people can sleep at night knowing that we did the right thing.... never minding the impact to the deficit, our image in international politics, or how either is going to affect thier lives in the long run.

Ignorance is bliss.

[opera ghost]

References for numbers I used:

Table of military fatalities in Iraq- Dec 1
(MSNBC and Reuters)
http://famulus.msnbc.com/FamulusIntl/reuters12-01-084927.asp?reg=MIDEAST

DC IS AGAIN 'MURDER CAPITAL', NEW STUDY SHOWS
(from SafeStreetsDC)
http://www.safestreetsdc.com/subpages/murdercap.html

[JTD]

First, review this quote: Here's a more detailed explanation on the lack of WMD's:

This is how I denote sources. I identify that an article is coming and I use a colon to indicate that it's an article. That's what I do on internet boards. Sorry for the confusion. I did not want credit for that article. I just forgot to quote it.

BTW, I sense a veiled attack on my credibility by you guys making such a big deal out of it??

More later when I have time.

[chadtm80]

First, review this quote: Here's a more detailed explanation on the lack of WMD's:

This is how I denote sources. I identify that an article is coming and I use a colon to indicate that it's an article. That's what I do on internet boards. Sorry for the confusion. I did not want credit for that article. I just forgot to quote it.

BTW, I sense a veiled attack on my credibility by you guys making such a big deal out of it??

More later when I have time.

Well Jason if they seem a lil irritated by it, then thats prob because they were..

Here's a more detailed explanation on the lack of WMD's:

Definatly dont see where that means.. Here is some info from other sites that I found.. You opend with a personal post then put your lil colin and considerd it to be sited.. Well it wasnt.. So you were called on it...

[JTD]

First, review this quote: Here's a more detailed explanation on the lack of WMD's:

This is how I denote sources. I identify that an article is coming and I use a colon to indicate that it's an article. That's what I do on internet boards. Sorry for the confusion. I did not want credit for that article. I just forgot to quote it.

BTW, I sense a veiled attack on my credibility by you guys making such a big deal out of it??

More later when I have time.

Well Jason if they seem a lil irritated by it, then thats prob because they were..

Here's a more detailed explanation on the lack of WMD's:

Definatly dont see where that means.. Here is some info from other sites that I found.. You opend with a personal post then put your lil colin and considerd it to be sited.. Well it wasnt.. So you were called on it...

WOW. What did I do to deserve such wrath??!! I feel that Chad wants to be like an authority figure to me or something? What's the big deal, geez................!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[mf_dolphin]

I don't see it as wrath just stating the situation. We try and credit the source of information we post from other sources so that it's clear whether it's a personal opinion or not. As I'm sure you understand, the source is sometimes just as critical as the information in an article.

[chadtm80]

WOW. What did I do to deserve such wrath??!! I feel that Chad wants to be like an authority figure to me or something? What's the big deal, geez................!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wrath? I am capable of Wrath? Jenn did you here that.. I have Wrath.. YOU BETTER WATCH IT YOUNG LADY OR YOU SHALL FEEL MY WRATH!!!.. LOL.. Think she's scared guys?

Jason no anger or "wrath" in my post at all.. Infact I hadnt even posted on the whole copy paste issue untill that post.. and I was just giving you an explanation from the "outside" That is all

[Miss Mary]

WOW. What did I do to deserve such wrath??!! I feel that Chad wants to be like an authority figure to me or something? What's the big deal, geez................!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wrath? I am capable of Wrath? Jenn did you here that.. I have Wrath.. YOU BETTER WATCH IT YOUNG LADY OR YOU SHALL FEEL MY WRATH!!!.. LOL.. Think she's scared guys?

Jason no anger or "wrath" in my post at all.. Infact I hadnt even posted on the whole copy paste issue untill that post.. and I was just giving you an explanation from the "outside" That is all

Chad - I'm sure she's shaking in her boots!!! LOL Naw, ya want to know what I think? You're all talk!!!! I'm sure you're putty in her hands.

Maybe some here don't understand our teasing. It's not everyday we have couples both posting! I know I couldn't get MY husband to join us. You're in an elite club all your own Chad - with Jenn right there too!

Mary

[JTD]

OK, lol. Got it guys. Sorry about the misunderstanding.

[Arizwx]

Respectfully,
I find the refernces to Vietnam to be somewhat callous and offensive.
I was there.
The recent events have brought us into a match of 'Just' vs 'Unjust'..and a sense of National Pride vs National Scorn.
THIS war is NO MORE JUST OR UNJUST for many of us that served in SEASIA.Let me make this very clear.
Moreover...to compare 40-50 yr old technology with losses is ludicrous.
Think about the lives and maimed saved due to tech advances.The comparison is not Quid Pro Quo.
I also must emphasize,the VALOR and HONOR by which 500,000 served(many drafted) is HONORABLE.It seems to defend this war vs Nam is somehow a justification.It should not be.Do many of you actually think that Nam was NOT about Natl' Security?Not about defending our neighbors and homeland against Communist Agression Post WW II?Do you NOT beleive the 58,000 dead and 122,000 maimed that we did NOT believe in our Cmmr in Cheif?Do you not understand that it was CONGRESS and NOT the Military that precluded a Valiant Effort to FREE a repressed and decent people...as much as they FOUGHT with us?
Do you understand that WMDs DID and DO exist in the Communist theatre to this day?Do you?
How the US Educational system has somehow destroyed the HISTORY of our fight is IMHO evident in many postings here and on other BBs.
I stand for TRUTH...not hypocricy.If I stand with this President,I stand with my former.Popular or Not.
The Fight is the same.

[coriolis]

Jason, thanks for not getting mad. It's just a LOT more interesting to hear someone's own opinion in their own words. I'd like to commend Opera Ghost. We may not agree, but her posts are always intersting, well thought out, well written, and from the heart. They are a pleasure to read, even if I may not agree with them. That goes for Paolo too. Thoughful, intelligent. Someone I'd like to go drinking with.
When someone goes on a quoting spree my eyes just glaze over.

[mf_dolphin]

DJ, what happened to our Vietnam veterans was and is a national disgrace! In no way is their sacrafice any les than those who are dying today. They were there to do a job as directed by their Commander in Chief. Their loss was tragic in the sense that they were assigned a task and yet not given the support of the country or politicians to prosecute the war in the way that was necessary to win.

[Arizwx]

DJ, what happened to our Vietnam veterans was and is a national disgrace! In no way is their sacrafice any les than those who are dying today. They were there to do a job as directed by their Commander in Chief. Their loss was tragic in the sense that they were assigned a task and yet not given the support of the country or politicians to prosecute the war in the way that was necessary to win.

Marshall,
I thank you for the response..however,
my earlier post was not from the mind of an enbittered ex JetJock looking for a salve on wounded ego scenario.What you expressed is sorrow and grief.That is past.This is now.
The parrellels to today's War normally exist upon 4 premises.
#1)Justification.IMHO...and plz re read my earlier entry to clarify,both are/were given Global Crisis Levels and CIA 411 w/regard to OUR Natl Security and Global threat levels.The Russkie/Chinese/French Connection to old Colony Links and Arms deals.
#2.)Dicatorship/Repressed ppls and the envelopment of a posture indicative of a ppl welcoming Freedom.
#3.)The apparent mindset of Good American Citizens and a RESPECTED President being made pawns of by Congressional Mis Use of power vs Media misrepresentation.
#4.)The 'World Opinion' aka USA Bashing malcontents that may have easily forgotten what we did for them in WW2..inclusive of ex-Nazi Axis Italy.
Therfore...we must be cautious as Americans to stay the course.Do what me must...be that what in may.
That is All.
DJ

[Guest]

I have read an interesting article from a journalist in Rome, analysing some aspects of AlQaeda and Saudi Arabia. I'm just trying to translate at my best some questions that you might find interesting:
Why AlQaeda is killing unfaithfuls and muslims without any discrimination?
The answer is quite articulated: AlQaeda is not coming from poor people, from the "bidonvilles". AlQaeda is a trend followed by a portion of the palace governing Saudi Arabia.
What's Saudi Arabia?
Saudi Arabia is a place where the populations is divided in bedouins, slaves, workers, immigrants, women, camels and a minority of billioner noblemen that are and own everything.
The local religion is a caricature of Islam, correspond to the Catholicism of Inquisition: women mute, gays to death, poors on their knees, riches on the saddle. Should someone complain, first sentenced to death, then to hell.
This regime, more and more bloodthirsty than Saddam's one, is western oriented since its birth, it means for 100 years now.
The reason is quite simple: it floats on that liquid necessary to move all machineries around the world.
The leading families turned into two parties. The first wanted going on doing the same: belching and stoning to death, using US and UK money.
The other wanted to sell the oil by their own at higher price, so that they could stone to death more people on a more extended territory.
The two parties fighted for some years, since the day that someone had the brilliant idea to turn it into religion: "to rule with a rod of iron" became "apply the holy law" and "take all money from oil" became "the driving out of the unfaithfuls". Women, workers, slaves etc... went on not having any right of speech but at least they had now some new noble leaders to clap enthusiastically and occasionally to die for them, in change of a place in heaven.
We first supported the firsts, to have oil in change, then supported the seconds, to help them in facing our enemies.
In Afganistan at a certain point a "civil" (civil meant that every now and then the women were allowed to flip up their burkas) government took power. For some local reasons, this government was pro-russians, that's why we armed Bin Laden. Bin Laden convinced himself that since he won against the russians, he could have been the winner against all the others as well.
Since Saudi Arabia is a very rich country (or better, the 20/30 leading families are) so is AlQaeda, that invested in US and Europe and had good returns (Alqaeda is quite good in inside trading).
Of course it would be quite easy to financially destroy AlQaeda, a simple law on trasparency in bank accounts would do the job.
AlQaeda is not Islam, Islam is just an ideological justification.

...to be continued... the hardest section to follow, upon request

[stormchazer]

I have read an interesting article from a journalist in Rome, analysing some aspects of AlQaeda and Saudi Arabia. I'm just trying to translate at my best some questions that you might find interesting:
Why AlQaeda is killing unfaithfuls and muslims without any discrimination?
The answer is quite articulated: AlQaeda is not coming from poor people, from the "bidonvilles". AlQaeda is a trend followed by a portion of the palace governing Saudi Arabia.
What's Saudi Arabia?
Saudi Arabia is a place where the populations is divided in bedouins, slaves, workers, immigrants, women, camels and a minority of billioner noblemen that are and own everything.
The local religion is a caricature of Islam, correspond to the Catholicism of Inquisition: women mute, gays to death, poors on their knees, riches on the saddle. Should someone complain, first sentenced to death, then to hell.
This regime, more and more bloodthirsty than Saddam's one, is western oriented since its birth, it means for 100 years now.
The reason is quite simple: it floats on that liquid necessary to move all machineries around the world.
The leading families turned into two parties. The first wanted going on doing the same: belching and stoning to death, using US and UK money.
The other wanted to sell the oil by their own at higher price, so that they could stone to death more people on a more extended territory.
The two parties fighted for some years, since the day that someone had the brilliant idea to turn it into religion: "to rule with a rod of iron" became "apply the holy law" and "take all money from oil" became "the driving out of the unfaithfuls". Women, workers, slaves etc... went on not having any right of speech but at least they had now some new noble leaders to clap enthusiastically and occasionally to die for them, in change of a place in heaven.
We first supported the firsts, to have oil in change, then supported the seconds, to help them in facing our enemies.
In Afganistan at a certain point a "civil" (civil meant that every now and then the women were allowed to flip up their burkas) government took power. For some local reasons, this government was pro-russians, that's why we armed Bin Laden. Bin Laden convinced himself that since he won against the russians, he could have been the winner against all the others as well.
Since Saudi Arabia is a very rich country (or better, the 20/30 leading families are) so is AlQaeda, that invested in US and Europe and had good returns (Alqaeda is quite good in inside trading).
Of course it would be quite easy to financially destroy AlQaeda, a simple law on trasparency in bank accounts would do the job.
AlQaeda is not Islam, Islam is just an ideological justification.

...to be continued... the hardest section to follow, upon request

Are you giving the US your blessing to invade Saudi Arabia? Most folks in the US know that Saudi Arabia is not what one would call the best country. There is some popular support to quit doing business with them but that would lead to 3 serious issues.

1. The US economy would go to crap with loss of oil imports. If the US economy goes to crap...guess what?...so does the rest of the world. It would take the US a decade to get domestic oil supplies up to needed output.

2. If the current Saudi family were to fall, it is almost assured a fundamentalist Islamic Government would arise. This is why Al Qaida has attacked Saudi Arabia. The wish to undercut the royal family and take over which likely would result in #1.

3. There is currently no democratic element in Saudi Arabia which could take government control. There is no Iraqi Indepentdent Council group or the Northern Alliance with democratic elements as in Afghanistan. If we were to take down the royal family, then we would have a fundemental government like the Taliban and as we know, Human Rights under the Taliban were non-excistent.

A good example of all this might be Cambodia. Sihanouk, the Cambodian President, began to rely more and more on repression to quell dissent. Although he was still fairly popular in rural areas, many Cambodians were losing patience with Sihanouk; they resented the corruption of his regime and his repression of dissent. He was overthrown in a coup while he was on an International trip. He was betrayed by his inner circle and joined the Khmer Rouge painting his the new government as the real repression behind his former thrown. The populace begin to support the Khmer Rouge seeing the current ruling group as repressive. The corruption within the new administration was worse than that under Sihanouk, and many Cambodians began to believe that the country would be better off under the Khmer Rouge. Many of the peasants detested the new ruling party; they believed that Sihanouk - the onetime King - was Cambodia's rightful ruler.

After the end of the Vietnam conflict and the uS mistakes in Cambodia, the Khmer Rouge began to gain the upper hand in the Civil War taking place in Cambodia and the government finally surrendered. As the first Khmer Rouge troops entered the capital, they were greeted by crowds waving makeshift white flags. The war was over.

The cheering crowds could not know that the next three years of "peace" would lead to more deaths than the last five years of war.

The victorious soldiers did not share the sense of joy. Grim and unsmiling, still weary from battle, they made their way toward the center of the city. Having consolidated their positions, they immediately issued an order to the population: Evacuate the city.

Khmer society was about to be re-invented. The Khmer Rouge proclaimed it to be "Year Zero." Immediately upon the surrender of the republican government, Pol Pot put forth an eight-point program:


1. Evacuate people from all towns.
2. Abolish all markets.
3. Abolish Lon Nol regime currency, and withhold the revolutionary currency that had been printed.
4. Defrock all Buddhist monks, and put them to work growing rice.
5. Execute all leaders of the Lon Nol regime beginning with the top leaders.
6. Establish high-level cooperatives throughout the country, with communal eating.
7. Expel the entire Vietnamese minority population.
8. Dispatch troops to the borders, particularly the Vietnamese border.

By the time the Khmer Rouge was finally run out of power 1/4 of the population had been slaughtered. The darkest period in the nation's history had ended. In three-and-a-half years, out of a population of eight million people, more than two million people had died.

Some info obtained form http://www.mekong.net/cambodia/

Be careful what you wish for.

Here is and independent view of SA human rights record...not great but hardly Saddam like:

http://www.hrw.org/wr2k1/mideast/saudi.htm