Have we gone too far?

[petal*pusher]

Such an interesting post! Reading thru the responses reinforces my own views.

Dennis and Michelle.....your challenges seem overwelming I'm sure.....but your decision (to me) is correct. Sometimes we seem to put Doctors (and their wisdom) on pedestals......forgetting that so-called "advances" are not for every patient! Just as each of us have different viewpoints and opinions.....so do Doctors! I shudder thinking the different meds and operations the Rheumatologist put my 7 yr. old daughter thru long ago! I blindly trusted his efforts......sincere, but still being experimental in many of his approaches! Tons of reading gave me the backbone to question!

Ebb.......my own mother also is in the advanced stages of Alzhiemers.....and such a devestating disease this is to both the individual and the family! How very sad that remorse seems to be the reason for making un-needed decisions for her now........and you have every reason for this to be unsettling to you! My brother tried making Mom go to dental and eye appts.......and get a pap (NEVER had one in her life!).....the other 5 of us balked, and he was over-ruled! It's quite amazing when I visit Mom that there are many "clients" who have absolutely NO relatives getting them to Dr. visits or to even visit! Often, all of the people think I'm there to visit THEM.....and if I can be a tiny ray of sunshine in their lives, it's O.K. with me!.........p

[azsnowman]

I do have to admit, my mother in laws current doctor supports our decission 110%, as he too, is faced with the same problem with his father. Now her old doctor was a 180° different, he WANTED her to have the stint done. You see, the thing is, is that my father in law is retired military from WWII....he's on this new medical program for vets that's called Tri Care For Life.......by far, the BEST insurance plan bar NONE! It's pays 100 for EVERYTHING, their co pay on meds, 3$, no matter what the med is........once these doctors see this plan, they WRINGE their hands and see nuthin' but $$$$$ signs, with the exception of their new doctor.

Dennis

[Miss Mary]

Dennis - I think it comes down to one thing - the patient's desires. What does Michelle's mother want done? I agree modern medicine seems to go too far. Everyone wants a miracle and to feel 20 again. But you have to be realistic too, as you and Michelle are doing. I applaud you for weighing all options.

Prayers and good thoughts going out to you.

Petal - I agree, for decades we've put doctor's on pedestals. I used to work for 6 busy surgeon's and one was almost like a god to us (won't capitalize that word!). What he said went, we almost whispered around him. Silly huh? LOL I do know if I hadn't logged onto a colon cancer support group site and found a great diet, I'd still be eating the way all my doctor's told me to eat and still be confined to my bathroom (sorry for that detail. I'll leave it at that.). They'd say - take Immodium and enjoy life! However I discovered we are what we eat, it's very true, and so now I have a somewhat good quality of life. They wanted me to eat anything I used to (fiber, fresh fruits, raw veggies) and I'd be fine. Wish they could have walked a day in my shoes back then. Thank God for that one patient who posted a diet for me to follow. It saved my life almost! The things you discover and not from doctors necessarily.

Mary

[Guest]

Dennis, I think you and Michelle have come to the best decision given the situation. I'll pray for your family through this difficult time.

I do think having a living will is a great thing to do for your family so they will not have to make the decision when the time comes.

[streetsoldier]

Ive already done that..."no heroic measures", palliative care only, and I have spared my family the burden of funeral expenses by having a cremation policy in effect immediately postmortem, without services or visitation (unless an autopsy is needed in a criminal case).

But, that's just my decision...others have to make up their own minds.

[raine]

Delicate topic indeed my friend...

Remember my Gram?I struggled with similar issues that face you and Michelle today.For over a year I watched her suffer in body,mind and spirit.Her last two months were the worst tho', my mom and my aunt could not let go... in the end I took a hard line, reality check with my mom and my aunt.Less than a week later Gram passed into the arms of Jesus.

Without a doubt modern medicine is aGod inspired miracle worker.....look at my son.Without those life saving medications and modern equipment last spring, he would not be here today.At the same time those modern medicines and equipment keep folks alive, mostly the elderly, long after they should have died.

It's no easy decision, that much I know is true.It's the closest I have come to "playing God" with someone else's life.I never want to be in that position again......ever.


I guess what I looked at with Gram was the quality of her life.Lying in that bed, being kept alive by a tube feed and medications.She couldn't talk, couldn't move, but she could feel pain and somewhere, locked in that prison of her body, I think she was still aware of what was happening to her.I promised her I would always take care of her.Gram's worst fear was that she would have a stroke and wind up a vegetable in a nursing home.A nightmare come true for her and for me.

I KNOW I did the right thing....but still it is an awful feeling, to know that you have cast the dice that decides the life path of someone you love dearly.Unless someone has walked in your shoes, they cannot understand just how awful that feeling can be.Still I do have peace,I have tucked in my heart all the wonderful memories of Gram, death cannot ever take them away.Love is the strongest of all emotions, what we do in love, for those we love, CAN conquer all....and we have the peace of God that transends all understanding of our hearts and minds.


Dear Dennis and Michelle please know that I keep you covered in prayer at this time in your life and the life of michelle's mom.In my humble opinion I believe you both made the right decision, not an easy one, but then the hardest, heart wrenching decisions are never easy....nor should they be.

God Bless the two of you...and may His perfect love, peace, comfort and understanding be steadfast and unceasing while you walk this journey of life with Mom.

With love, in Christ, Raine

[therock1811]

There was someone at my church who had Lou Gehrig's Disease, he passed away on Friday afternoon...modern medicine does work wonders but could not do anything in this case, anyhow to restate what Dennis said:

God does not call someone home UNTIL their work on this earth is done, we DO, after all, have a purpose in life and it's sometimes not UNTIL after the person crosses over that we realize just what their purpose was.

In the case of the man I was talking about a second ago, his work was done here, all the while as he was dying he was trying to reach one more for Jesus...

[Amanzi]

In the case of the man I was talking about a second ago, his work was done here, all the while as he was dying he was trying to reach one more for Jesus...

Jeremy.... That really pulled at my heart strings... just something I needed to hear... His testemony truly is living still.

Dennis.. My prayers go out to you and Michelle. You are both faced with a tough thing here.... I pray God will give you wisdom.

[opera ghost]

It's a tough decision. Really tough. In the last few years I've been near and dear to a number of people who challanged my beliefs on what measures should be gone to to keep them alive.

Helen was a strong woman with spinal cancer. She lived 2 years beyond what the doctors said just so that she could see her only son off to college. Her quality of life only started to fail significantly in the last 2 weeks before she died. They took a lot of gambles on expirimental treatments and she won what she could... and kept laughing off what she lost. She was lucid and aware moments before her death and got to hold her son's hand one last time before she died.

Put was a very bright and happy guy before he was RX'd with alzheimers. By 1992 his memory had started to fail and by the time I met him in 1998 he could speak- but he had no concept of where or when he was (He was so sweet to me because he thought I was his daughter- he would ahve been my grandfather in law) By the time of his death in 1999 he was bed ridden, unaware of his surroundings and totally non responsive. They stoped treating him and let him go- and it took 8 months of misery. It was a blessing to him and his entire family when he passed away.

Lisa was RX'd with Guillian-Barre in 1991- a disease that would have been fatal if untreated- as it was she spent 8 months in the hospital (6 on a ventilator but aware) and another year in therapy just to relearn how to walk. Her quality of life was very low but she was determined to live regardless- she had two children that she couldn't let grow up without a mom. She was miserable half of the time from then for years after- her feet had shooting pains and it was an effort just to get up in the mornings and deal with her damaged body. This last summer she accidently overdosed on her pain meds and her family had another decision to make... We could keep her alive. On a ventilator... in a hospital. She would at the very least go through dialysis for the rest of her life- and she might never wake up again. Someday she might go home, but she would have twice daily dialysis in addition to the remaining pain and suffering of her Gullian-Barre. She tried so hard to live. She tried so freaking hard. Her son was getting married in a week and she'd bought 3 dresses and was looking forward to it and she forced herself to wake up after the first day of the coma. But when she slipped back into the coma- the hard decision was made to let her go. I don't necessarily agree with it- but I wasn't consulted. It would have been nice if they'd waited to see if she woudl wake up again so that she could make the decision herself- but that wasn't the way it happened.

As a result of that I made a living will- and would suggest that anyone else out there do the same. I didn't agree with technology keeping Put alive, I was encouraged by technology keeping Helen alive... but Lisa was the hard one- where do you draw the line between the will and want to live and the quality of life? What would she have chosen if she'd had the chance to wake up again? I think she would have asked that we let her go- she was that strong of a woman and valued her independance too much to let herself be chained to a hospital for the rest of her life. But it's all speculation since her son signed the DNR order and she died 8 hours later.

But I didn't agree fully with the decision her son made... and since he's my husband- I have a living will.

[azsnowman]

Indeed a very touchy subject......I didn't mean to stir up old scars, memories with this, just simply saying that I believe modern medicine in "SOME" cases has indeed, gone too far.

Now, as I post this, Michelle's in Cottonwood with her mother, she now has a blood clot in the right lung......it's only a matter of time I'm afraid, but as I posted, we're prepared for the worst case scenario, or in this case, a blessing, she's suffered so much for so long.

Dennis

[ColdFront77]

Indeed a very touchy subject......I didn't mean to stir up old scars, memories with this, just simply saying that I believe modern medicine in "SOME" cases has indeed, gone too far.

That's the key words "some cases"... there is/was a reason for the technological advances to have people live longer when they are truly still alive and may not seem it.

[vbhoutex]

Amen to you EB and Dennis and Debbie and everyone else. I was fortunate with my Dad(I have posted the whole scenario before so I won't do it again here)who had made his wishes clear when he was lucid. It made that toughest decision of all a lot easier to make when the time came. I know he is better off for it as are all of us. Remember, God works in the most mysterious of ways and he uses each and every one of us in some way in every situation we are involved in. As was stated above, it is always BEST AND HARDEST to LET GO AND LET GOD!!

[azsnowman]

Jeremy...you are truly blessed with the Holy Spirit, I can sense that even over this computer monitor, Bless ya Brother!

Dennis

[raine]

I for one am glad you stirred the pot Dennis.It felt good to put to words my thoughts and feelings, it felt good to read other's experiences, their thoughts and feelings....to know that you are not alone....while the circumstances may differ, the underlying feeling of being understood, of being able to voice those thoughts and feelings tucked away in the soul closet....reminds me of what Steve once said about the umbrella of friendship...thanks Dennis for opening up this particular umbrella...I found comfort and solace under it today....that my friend is a blessing.

Keeping you and Michelle in prayer my friend..and everybody else underneath this umbrella too...

Raine

[azsnowman]

Thank you raine! Indeed, it IS a comfort knowing that others are having to make the choice, it doesn't however make it any easier.

Not to "EVEN" compare this with a loved one but dang it...having to make the choice in the life of our dear furry friends in hard enough let alone a mother, father, brother, sister.

Dennis

[azsnowman]

It's my turn....as I posted in the MPW Prayer request thread, I've asked for prayers BIG TIME and I've been some what of a butthead the past few days

Well, it's turns out the findings of my MRI that I had done at the first of the week shows a dramatic change in my Dengenerative Disk Disease, it's progression has spread at a very rapid pace in just the past month, to the point, that I now am faced in making one of these decisions that I so despise. Seems my 4th and 5th vertabrae are *crumbling* so to speak and they want to do surgery ASAP. They remedy for this is basicly rebuilding the discs with cement???? ANYWAYS....the success rate of this surgery according to my sawbones is about 20% with a 70% chance that I could be crippled even worse than I am now and IF I choose NOT to have the surgery, there's a 60% chance that in 1.5 to 2 years that I *might* be confined to a wheel chair. Now doesn't this just REALLY SUCK I'm finally doing what I want to do and have wanted to do for EONS, being a Peace Officer, playing golf, working in my yard, you name it!!!

Well, I've come to the decision that I "AM NOT" going to have the surgery, I've done some research on the internet this afternoon, I've been in my prayer closet and listened to that *Quite Still Voice*. There ARE other options out there, holistic, massage therapy, calcium supplements that *MIGHT* stop this rapid process of degeneration. The surgery would require me to be laid up for over 6 months without ANY activity what so ever, I'm sorry, I'm taking my chances and if God sees it fit for me to live a normal life, a life confined to a wheelchair, so be it!

Dennis

[Pburgh]

Was I in a cave or something when this post began??? :-? My prayers go out to so many of you who have had such difficult decisions and very sad situations in your lives.

Raine, Gram is with Granny. (Hugs) They're playing Yatzee, remember??

Petal, I think your Mom is one of the luckiest women I know to have you as her daughter. I've known you for almost three years and you have been an angel to her. Your family is definitely blessed to have you.

Dennis, I've been a bad friend. Sorry. I'd come over and give you a hug, but I'd be afraid I'd hurt your ribs!!! What am I going to do with you??? First, I think you and Michelle have made a very brave decision about her Mom. ((Hugs)) to both of you. Second, I think you've made the right decision about your surgery. 20% chance is not enough when there may be other alternatives. If you want to talk, I'm here for ya, you know that.

[streetsoldier]

Dennis,

Do what you can, for as long as you can...and keep MEE-chelle at your side, on-or-off-duty.

Wheelchairs aren't all that bad; I've been waiting for one myself (as predicted, anyway), as I have 5 thoracic/lumbar vertebrae that are degenerating, and my cervicals are fused (causing a pronounced "stoop" that makes it painful to even shave my neck).

I'll give up when hell freezes over...and AZ can use a good cop. OK?

[azsnowman]

As always Bill...your words ring so true! "Thank You!"

Dennis

[Stephanie]

Dennis - I hope you saw my message in the "Prayer Warriors" thread.