What's in store for the US?

[coriolis]

I'm posing this question just to stimulate discussion.

Have we become a bit too selfish, hedonistic, and immoral?

Does the US need to be humbled in order for us to return to being a "good" nation? Is there a lesson to be learned from the terrorist attacks?

Will the people espousing reform be heard? Will that be enough? Is reform necessary?

Thinking back into history....What came after the "roaring 20's -a hedonistic time?" A depression and a world war. After that, America emerged strong, united, and with a vision.

Of course everyone knows that the Roman Empire collapsed from within. Are we going down that path?

I'm not a bible scholar, but didn't the nation of Israel go through cycles of strength, corruption, weakness, repentance, restoration, etc. Does that mean anything for the U.S.?

Would a dose of bitter medicine make this nation healthier?

What about moral people in an immoral nation? Is it the destiny of good people to just survive, and find their reward later, or is it their job to change the nation?

Lots questions, Any takers?

[Guest]

I do believe that our nation has become immoral. Just take a look at the headlines any day of the week or the "Hollywood lifestyle". And want to talk about selfish? All those lawsuit-happy people and trial lawyers are beyond selfish. They're banking on the fall of our health care system. And the politicians, where do I even begin? They're in office for the benefit of themselves, not of our great country. They recently gave themselves another raise. If I'm not mistaken, senators make over $150,000 a year. That's just ridiculous! Especially in economic times like this. Pharmaceutical companies are another one. Those companies spend sooooooo much money on advertising to the general public. Hello, the general public does not prescribe themselves medicine! Save those millions in advertising and reduce the costs of prescription drugs for our people! But that is how a capitalist society works. I sometimes wonder if capitalism is doomed to fail......

Felt good to get all that out!

...Jennifer...

[Stephanie]

Yeah, what's a "quark"???

I for one see similarities between the Roman Empire and the US. Selfish, hedonistic and immoral, yes, that too. However, I think that we are a much more giving and accepting nation compared to the Roman Empire. The terrorist attacks will always be there as long as there are people that are jealous and hate our society and beliefs.

Everything goes through cycles and so has our nation as you have already mentioned with the change between the Roaring 20's to the Great Depression and WWII. Any change that we may go through is healthy because there is something to learn from it. Look at 9/11. It helped to show us all that no matter what side of the political spectrum we are on, what beliefs we have, our race or sex, we still come together as a nation of caring people. I think that although it was a tragic day, it was a lesson that we needed to learn at that time.

[rainstorm]

we are not a selfish nation. that is ridiculous. we give aid to other countries far more than anyone else.
i do agree we are in decline though. the roman empire declined because of high taxation. the middle class was wiped out and the tax base crumbled. also, the central govt became too powerful, and eroded personal freedom. the same thing is happening here.
great nations rarely last more than 2 or 3 centuries.
we are slipping into socialism, high taxation, the loss of individualism, and lack of economic freedom. all things that made us great. as we depend more on big brother, the govt, we lose our greatness.

[Derek Ortt]

We are in decline? What is the world is your definition of decline, Rainstorm? We are still by far the best nation in the history of this planet, leading the fight to eradic those who wish to seek to destroy us. The Roman Empire declined mainly due to emperors purging themselves over the issue of Christianity, and it never even colappsed, the Church took over the gov't and it prospered for another 1,000 years.

To say that we are in decline is the most absurred thing I have heard in a long time

[wxid]

2 things i love and hate to talk about (but do anyway:)....politics and religion! I would say we are TOO politically correct minded and afraid to be ourselves and have a tendency to be people or nation pleasers. Not as much lately though. I will say no more....major can of worms here!

[rainstorm]

just check history. we are already in decline. we have already passed our peak as far as individualism goes. and economic freedom. it is a clear cycle. economic freedom is eroded as the govt grows. i look at russia and china as the next giants, as they throw off the shackles of communism, they will turn to capitalism and economic freedom, as we turn more and more to socialism. look at our politicians. they are openly buying votes with taxpayer money. socialized medicine is coming, and when it does, we will be owned, lock, stock ,and barrel by the govt.

[Derek Ortt]

Completely disagree with that assessment. There is not going to be a gov't socialism. This sounds like a chicken little sentiment (although a good one to scare the masses into convincing the masses not to vote Democrat, whihc of course I support)

[Derek Ortt]

Rainstorm, if we are in such a decline and Russia and China are such great nations, are you willing to give up your citizenship to go and live there?

[rainstorm]

no socialism? the govt has more and more control of our lives every day. just wait till the dems gain control over the congress and presidency again. the decline is gradual, but it is ongoing. i feel in 2 or 3 decades, russia will be an economic giant. they recently imposed a 15% flat tax, and it is already working miracles in their economy.

[Derek Ortt]

If Russia is so great and we are going to be so bad, just live in Russia! What you should be doing, instead of whining, it writing letters to your congressmen and taking an active participation in YOUR government to ensure that this does not happen. This involves getting others to do the same.

[azskyman]

Ed....here's one taker.

We've done a lot, of course, to earn our reputation as spoiled brats who indulge ourselves out of boredom. And while we like to play the other side...our giving, helpful, and humanitarian face, we're more likely to do that as a "people" than as an individual. In other words, we jump on the bandwagon reminding the world of just how many times we have bailed others out of trouble or "come to their rescue." But we rarely do it ourselves; we leave it to "someone else."

I believe our value system has been eroded by all the temptations of technology. We have found ways to justify virtually any decision. Our range of decisions is wider than ever before...with someone always there to rally to your side regardless of your choices. Standards have become so muddied that we worry more about political correctness than what is truly the right thing to do. And who can define that anyway?

We have been so concerned about separating church and state that we have diluted the foundation set forth some 200+ years ago. We would surely be a disappointment in many ways to those founding fathers. Their bushy eyebrows would lift right over their foreheads! Still, we have progressed much from their day, too. Women can now contribute in more ways than Betsy Ross!!!

The family unit, once the foundation for belief systems, work ethics, and religious values has been reduced to a tired and weary lot held together by little league games, cheerleading practice, hot pockets, and favorite sitcoms. It's hard to figure out what a real family is supposed to be...because we witness so many varieties right in our own neighborhoods. We talk about each one as though ours is the best. In reality, they are saying the same about what they watch in us!

I guess this makes us shallow, misdirected, and superficial. Too bad we go to bed so tired if that is all we are.

So much for the dark side.

Amid all of this confusion and turmoil are some wonderful and delightful bright spots.

For all we are not, there is evidence every day of our resilience as a people. Whether it is a fire, a family loss, an international tragedy, or an attack on our principles and our neighbors as on 9/11, we find it in ourselves to rise from the darkness and inspire the best in others. We unite to protect our sense of patriotism. For all its faults, we defend this country without a flinch. No one should ever make the mistake of misjudging our resolve. It is as it has always been...absolute and without yield. This country will not fall as long as even one American carries the flag.

As parents we want things better for our kids than they were for us. If we struggled, we craft a path that reduces their risk to the same. If we had it good, we work hard to decide what "making it still better" might mean. We use opportunities, good and bad, to instill values and inspire our sons and daughters. We indulge perhaps, but temper our indulgence with "qualifiers", reminding them that such good things do not just happen, but must be earned...and achieved by setting goals. Almost like having real standards and expectations! But not quite.

Ed, you mention humility. It is seen as a sign of weakness by many these days. How many times I have witnessed an opportunity for humility to take center stage, but instead watched the chance just slip away in favor of another emotion or credit to something or someone less. I am disappointed in the general lack of humillity. CYA has taken its place. Ethics get all intermingled...and what comes out in the end is something far less. Yet we recognize it for what it is or is not. And that is good.

Still...I find rays of sunshine in people here on Storm2k and elsewhere. This morning, upon arriving at work, there was a message from an anonymous emailer who had read a simple post of mine on AOL. She was but a teenager, but said she was in tears for reading those five lines...and thanked me for them.

A teenager thanking a keenager? You want to see light right here in the USA? There it was! I didn't have to look any further than my monitor to find it. It is genuine...and it visits us every day. We just have to watch for it.

The ills of this nation, Ed, are but a composite of our own misdirected and misguided lives. But the strengths are still mighty and something to be proud of as well.

I believe we will be humbled...in big ways...in the weeks, months, and years ahead. Out of pain will grow some gain. And our resilience will once again show through.

We're doing ok with all that is on our plate. We'll do even better once we realize what sacrifice really means.

Thanks for the chance to paint myself into this corner. At least there is a warm fire here.

azskyman

[opera ghost]

I think this could be looked at in the attitudes of society towards women and fashion. (Hold on with me for a few moments- I'm not a rabid feminist) The political state, and fashion state of women has been a very good indication for several centuries of the views of society as a whole.

In the 1920's fashion was footloose and free- gone were the corsets and the full skirts in came the flapper styles and the freewheeling society.

The 30's and 40's were periods of change into...

The 50's when women went back into thier restrictive clothing, they were placed back where they "belonged" after they had tasted liberation while thire husbands and children were off at war.

But in the 60's protest came around again- raising hemlines, liberations and freedom.

By the 70's a liberal woman was once again fashionable- pants were accepted- choices regarding home and family were no longer restrictive and demonstrating ones freedom of self expression was considered very good.

In the 80's we began to once again pull back on the reigns. Women went into suits for work (one of the first decades when women were quasi expected to work and people began to look down at the stay at home) instead of hippie clothes. Fashion fought a war between the conservative and the wildly eclectic- and conservative won.

In the 90's fashion became even more conservative fluid, fashion lines became acceptable and the female form began to peak out again in waistlines and the fashionable line. Eating disorders went on the rise as fashion went on the rise and individuality began to slowly die the same death it suffered in the 30's and 40's.

We are on our way back into the ultra conservatism of the 50's.. and the victorian period. Every so often the general public gets spooked of the strides that were made in the last "decadent" era- many times this is a predomanently male move to put women back into thier places (usually with the full consent of women!) which brings an end to an era... and begins another one.

We are at the end of an era- and I, personally, am sad to see it go. Women have become so strong politically that it will become clear in the coming years that feminism is dying. More and more women are pulling back towards the "good old days" of Camelot and conservative homes. Unfortunetly women as a group and society as a whole went too far this time to ever go back. We have empowered our poor, empowered our women, and in a liberal time we changed things that will make it impossible to go back.

I see the next 30 years being a painful time. Conservatives are coming into power and will try to fix all of the things that were "broken" in the last liberal era- but we gave our minorities power and the liberals will fight it to the bitter end.

Neither is right or wrong... but society does go through era's of conservation and liberation. We are heading into an era of conservatives. Therefore the past is decadent and amoral and wrong- it was liberal. When the liberal era was coming into power in the 60's it was considered wrong and amoral to be conservative.

I'm sad to see a conservative period coming forth- as a woman and as a liberal. It feels like taking massive steps backwards to me even though it's not possible for this conservative era to take us back to the 50's.

Liberals made sure of that this last time. It's going to be a long hard road for piety and conservation to take full root. I think we have the beginning of a collapse coming if we can't learn to change.

But sometimes I can't help but wonder if it's really so bad for collapse to happen every now and then. Pheonix rises from the ashes.

We CANNOT and WILL NOT go back to the good old days.... these are the good old days- which we will look back on in 50 years as a time of patriotism and unity....

And that's kinda sad.

[stormchazer]

I think this could be looked at in the attitudes of society towards women and fashion. (Hold on with me for a few moments- I'm not a rabid feminist)

Oh yes you are. I will respond later when I can be a little more coherent.[/quote]

[opera ghost]

Hm. Rabid I am not. Femist I may be. I'm not about to chew anyone's left leg off if they stand in my way as a woman. The post asked about the rise and fall of hedonism and moralism- which I see as conservatism and liberalism, which is also reflected in womens rights.

It's hard to be a hard core feminist when you'd really rather be a stay at home, cook the family meals, and take care of the children, mom. I was born in the wrong era! But since I'm here already I don't mind using examples.

[stormchazer]

Hm. Rabid I am not. Femist I may be. I'm not about to chew anyone's left leg off if they stand in my way as a woman. The post asked about the rise and fall of hedonism and moralism- which I see as conservatism and liberalism, which is also reflected in womens rights.

It's hard to be a hard core feminist when you'd really rather be a stay at home, cook the family meals, and take care of the children, mom. I was born in the wrong era! But since I'm here already I don't mind using examples.

hedonism [ hd’n ìzzəm ]

noun

1. seeking of pleasure: a devotion, especially a self-indulgent one, to pleasure and happiness as a way of life


2. philosophy philosophy of pleasure: a philosophical doctrine that holds that pleasure is the highest good or the source of moral values



liberalism [ líbbərə lìzzəm, líbbrə lìzzəm ]

noun

1. politics progressive views: a belief in tolerance and gradual reform in moral, religious, or political matters


2. politics political theory stressing individualism: a political ideology with its beginnings in western Europe that rejects authoritarian government and defends freedom of speech, association, and religion, and the right to own property


3. economics free-market economics: an economic theory in favor of free competition and minimal government regulation


4. christianity Christian theological movement: a movement in modern Protestantism stressing intellectual freedom and the moral content of Christianity over the doctrines of traditional theology


And of course..

conservatism [ kən súrvə tìzzəm ]

noun

1. reluctance to accept change: unwillingness or slowness to accept change or new ideas


2. right-wing political viewpoint: a right-of-center political philosophy based on a tendency to support gradual rather than abrupt change and to preserve the status quo


3. desire to preserve current societal structure: an ideology that views the existing form of society as worthy of preservation




I fail to see the correlation?!

[opera ghost]

Referencing back to the origional post

I see a correlation between the origional post's rise and fall topic of hedonism and reform when combined with politics and society's response to reform. I picked women as "the" reform. There are quite a few people here who would find it easy to relate hedonism in society during a liberals reign in the white house with liberal view points in general. (a cause and effect theroy if you will, although more of a effect, cause, cause, effect effect effect rather than a direct relationship.)

I am predominantly using hedonism #2, liberalism #1, and conservatism #1 although I didn't have a dictionary in front of me so I can't gurantee that there aren't ocassional lapses in deffinition.

And I'm using liberalism and conservatism as the defining property of era's rather than as the change in and of themselves. Although it should be noted that liberalistic era's pop up with alarming swiftness and conservative ones creep into the public much more slowly.

*smiles*

[Stephanie]

Hm. Rabid I am not. Femist I may be. I'm not about to chew anyone's left leg off if they stand in my way as a woman. The post asked about the rise and fall of hedonism and moralism- which I see as conservatism and liberalism, which is also reflected in womens rights.

It's hard to be a hard core feminist when you'd really rather be a stay at home, cook the family meals, and take care of the children, mom. I was born in the wrong era! But since I'm here already I don't mind using examples.

hedonism [ hd’n ìzzəm ]

noun

1. seeking of pleasure: a devotion, especially a self-indulgent one, to pleasure and happiness as a way of life


2. philosophy philosophy of pleasure: a philosophical doctrine that holds that pleasure is the highest good or the source of moral values



liberalism [ líbbərə lìzzəm, líbbrə lìzzəm ]

noun

1. politics progressive views: a belief in tolerance and gradual reform in moral, religious, or political matters


2. politics political theory stressing individualism: a political ideology with its beginnings in western Europe that rejects authoritarian government and defends freedom of speech, association, and religion, and the right to own property


3. economics free-market economics: an economic theory in favor of free competition and minimal government regulation


4. christianity Christian theological movement: a movement in modern Protestantism stressing intellectual freedom and the moral content of Christianity over the doctrines of traditional theology


And of course..

conservatism [ kən súrvə tìzzəm ]

noun

1. reluctance to accept change: unwillingness or slowness to accept change or new ideas


2. right-wing political viewpoint: a right-of-center political philosophy based on a tendency to support gradual rather than abrupt change and to preserve the status quo


3. desire to preserve current societal structure: an ideology that views the existing form of society as worthy of preservation




I fail to see the correlation?!

So the problem is what, Tolerance? Individualism? Intellectual Freedom? Being Happy?

[sunnyday]

God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah for the same type of trash that is going on in our cities every day.....

[Stephanie]

God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah for the same type of trash that is going on in our cities every day.....

Yes he did and we know that that day will be coming again. The thing is that we should all be the best person we can be which includes being unselfish, tolerant, giving, etc. and God will be the final judge.