Tropical Wave in the West-Central Caribbean (Is Invest 91L)

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aspen
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Re: Possible development in Western Caribbean

#101 Postby aspen » Mon Sep 28, 2020 9:22 am

Shell Mound wrote:
aspen wrote:I’m slightly concerned about the potential for future Gamma to spin up before the models expect it to form. Remember how horrible they did with the genesis of Nana. If it does form quicker than anticipated, like perhaps in 2-3 days instead of 4-5 days, it would have more time over water before hitting Cuba or the Yucatán, whether it takes the GFS-Para track or the GFS/CMC track.

Even if it were somehow able to “spin up” into a major hurricane early on, which I don’t expect, it would still weaken to Cat-1/-2 status in the GoM due to shear. Wilma, like Michael, was able to maintain or even augment its intensity because it was moving parallel to the vectors, whereas in this case the vectors are expected to be perpendicular to the forward motion of the system. A better analog for this system might be Isbell ‘64, which briefly but quickly intensified near western Cuba, then weakened to a disheveled Cat-2 just before landfall in Southwest Florida. It delivered minimal impacts to South Florida; in fact, hurricane-spawned tornadoes produced most of the damage. According to reports, Isbell moved quickly, produced minimal rainfall, generated low tides, and lacked a well-defined southern eyewall, owing to shear and mid-level dry air. In 1964, an upper low was present very close to Isbell, along with a strong surface cold front, and models show a similar setup for this potential system.

I don’t anticipate this doing anything crazy in the Gulf. Either it’ll peak in the Caribbean like Wilma, or survive crossing over Florida and peak off of the CONUS like Irene ‘99 (Wilma also intensified again after its Florida landfall).
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Re: Possible development in Western Caribbean

#102 Postby SoupBone » Mon Sep 28, 2020 9:25 am

Aric Dunn wrote:Seriously people.. with the shear debate.. we have been through this soo many times. soo many variables.. timing, tilt to the trough, steering, etc.

1. Shear now in the Gulf does not equal Shear in the gulf in 5 plus days..

2. the NE motion in the eastern gulf( assuming that motion happens) can and often does this time of year, depending on angle, can lead to enhanced upper divergence and allow for significant deepening.

3. First wave is unlikely to head to western or northern Gulf do to timing. But assuimng we want to believe any of the solutions with the second wave... then the timing of that wave and potenial develop would allow for a western Gulf threat.



What second wave?
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Re: Possible development in Western Caribbean

#103 Postby cheezyWXguy » Mon Sep 28, 2020 9:28 am

SoupBone wrote:
Aric Dunn wrote:Seriously people.. with the shear debate.. we have been through this soo many times. soo many variables.. timing, tilt to the trough, steering, etc.

1. Shear now in the Gulf does not equal Shear in the gulf in 5 plus days..

2. the NE motion in the eastern gulf( assuming that motion happens) can and often does this time of year, depending on angle, can lead to enhanced upper divergence and allow for significant deepening.

3. First wave is unlikely to head to western or northern Gulf do to timing. But assuimng we want to believe any of the solutions with the second wave... then the timing of that wave and potenial develop would allow for a western Gulf threat.



What second wave?

The system that shows up around 10 days out that bombs out on the latest gfs. Anything beyond general formation should be dismissed as entertainment at this point though
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Re: Possible development in Western Caribbean

#104 Postby drezee » Mon Sep 28, 2020 9:32 am

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Re: Possible development in Western Caribbean

#105 Postby SFLcane » Mon Sep 28, 2020 9:33 am

Here come the seeds...

Image
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Re: Possible development in Western Caribbean

#106 Postby toad strangler » Mon Sep 28, 2020 9:34 am



That's an interesting thought. When I used to live in the NE we always used to say that in order to get the big snow totals you have to smell the TAINT. (sleet, freezing rain line)
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Re: Possible development in Western Caribbean

#107 Postby drezee » Mon Sep 28, 2020 9:34 am

We need a low to form first. I would request more weather ballons upstream and/or fly a Global Hawk in the Atlantic. We have done it before.
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Re: Possible development in Western Caribbean

#108 Postby AutoPenalti » Mon Sep 28, 2020 9:37 am

Let me backtrack on my post I made about the ICON model run, considering it doesn't even take into account the high TCHP values near the Western Caribbean.

Shear will be a double-edged sword, imo.
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Re: Possible development in Western Caribbean

#109 Postby Aric Dunn » Mon Sep 28, 2020 9:56 am

This recent convective burst with the wave has begun to really sharpen the axis. some southerly inlow is now noted with more NE winds as well. decent mid level broad rotation too. also a bit north of the GFS in terms of the wave axis being mostly over South America on the GFS until it reaches western cariib.

so with it being fully over water allowing vorticity to slowly increase before reaching the western carrib.... tends to point towards faster development.
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Re: Possible development in Western Caribbean

#110 Postby StPeteMike » Mon Sep 28, 2020 10:01 am

At this point, I’m inclined to only consider shear forecasts a day or two out. There’s been many examples this year where it’s either depicted strong shear for there to be very little or no shear and yet we have storms struggling to get going due to unexpected shear.
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Re: Possible development in Western Caribbean

#111 Postby boca » Mon Sep 28, 2020 10:03 am

Aric Dunn wrote:This recent convective burst with the wave has begun to really sharpen the axis. some southerly inlow is now noted with more NE winds as well. decent mid level broad rotation too. also a bit north of the GFS in terms of the wave axis being mostly over South America on the GFS until it reaches western cariib.

so with it being fully over water allowing vorticity to slowly increase before reaching the western carrib.... tends to point towards faster development.


Would that affect the track of this potential storm?
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Re: Possible development in Western Caribbean

#112 Postby cp79 » Mon Sep 28, 2020 10:05 am

Wilma is a great example. Similar time as this was, very similar season in that they went Greek in ‘05, and similar potential track with the sharp NE turn off the Yucatán as front approaches. As far as strength goes, no one knows. It’s way too far out to predict conditions in the Northern Caribbean and SE gulf. Let’s let the week play out and see where this thing could form after the front moves through in a few days.
Last edited by cp79 on Mon Sep 28, 2020 10:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Possible development in Western Caribbean

#113 Postby SFLcane » Mon Sep 28, 2020 10:05 am

Aric Dunn wrote:This recent convective burst with the wave has begun to really sharpen the axis. some southerly inlow is now noted with more NE winds as well. decent mid level broad rotation too. also a bit north of the GFS in terms of the wave axis being mostly over South America on the GFS until it reaches western cariib.

so with it being fully over water allowing vorticity to slowly increase before reaching the western carrib.... tends to point towards faster development.


Right in que..

 https://twitter.com/wxpatel/status/1310594937302507524


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Re: Possible development in Western Caribbean

#114 Postby robbielyn » Mon Sep 28, 2020 10:08 am

StPeteMike wrote:At this point, I’m inclined to only consider shear forecasts a day or two out. There’s been many examples this year where it’s either depicted strong shear for there to be very little or no shear and yet we have storms struggling to get going due to unexpected shear.

yeah Sally struggled with shear.
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Re: Possible development in Western Caribbean

#115 Postby Aric Dunn » Mon Sep 28, 2020 10:14 am

SFLcane wrote:
Aric Dunn wrote:This recent convective burst with the wave has begun to really sharpen the axis. some southerly inlow is now noted with more NE winds as well. decent mid level broad rotation too. also a bit north of the GFS in terms of the wave axis being mostly over South America on the GFS until it reaches western cariib.

so with it being fully over water allowing vorticity to slowly increase before reaching the western carrib.... tends to point towards faster development.


Right in que..

https://twitter.com/wxpatel/status/1310594937302507524?


Well there you go.. lol


and where does everyone get all these Twitter post from lol. and who are half these people..

I cant stand twitter...
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Re: Possible development in Western Caribbean

#116 Postby SconnieCane » Mon Sep 28, 2020 10:14 am

robbielyn wrote:
StPeteMike wrote:At this point, I’m inclined to only consider shear forecasts a day or two out. There’s been many examples this year where it’s either depicted strong shear for there to be very little or no shear and yet we have storms struggling to get going due to unexpected shear.

yeah Sally struggled with shear.


...until she didn't, right before landfall.
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Re: Possible development in Western Caribbean

#117 Postby TheStormExpert » Mon Sep 28, 2020 10:29 am

Unless you call the GFS-Para and the NAVGEM trustworthy models then model support is limited for much if any development from this area. Maybe we will squeeze out a weak sheared/lopsided TS but nothing significant in my honest opinion.

Still can't rule out a major in this region at some point between the next two months but I doubt this is going to be that major.
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Re: Possible development in Western Caribbean

#118 Postby Shell Mound » Mon Sep 28, 2020 10:30 am

One thing to watch for is a trend toward a more zonal (relaxed) upper-air pattern. Of the two Cat-4+ hits on the Florida peninsula after September 22—Storm #8 (‘48) and King ‘50—both coincided with relatively zonal flow. (Incidentally, so did Michael.) Currently model guidance is showing a relatively meridional (amplified) pattern, hence strong(-er) vertical wind shear over the Gulf of Mexico. If models start to show a much more zonal flow with correspondingly lower shear, then I’ll duly note the threat for a major hurricane, particularly a Cat-4+, to strike peninsular Florida. Until then, however, I’m leaning toward the bearish side in terms of intensity, though I definitely expect development and even find a minimal hurricane to be quite plausible. However, anything stronger than a tropical storm or low-end hurricane remains unlikely, unless reliable models begin to shift substantially toward more zonal flow and much lower VWS.
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Re: Possible development in Western Caribbean

#119 Postby TheStormExpert » Mon Sep 28, 2020 10:33 am

robbielyn wrote:
StPeteMike wrote:At this point, I’m inclined to only consider shear forecasts a day or two out. There’s been many examples this year where it’s either depicted strong shear for there to be very little or no shear and yet we have storms struggling to get going due to unexpected shear.

yeah Sally struggled with shear.

The majority of storms this season have struggled with something at some point in their lives. Whether it was shear, dry air, SAL, or smoke from the California wildfires this is why this season has seen such a high number of named storms yet such a lower number of hurricanes and even lower number major hurricanes. This is why this seasons ACE is at a lousy 105 units verses 2005's final total of 250 units.
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Re: Possible development in Western Caribbean

#120 Postby eastcoastFL » Mon Sep 28, 2020 10:36 am

Aric Dunn wrote:
SFLcane wrote:
Aric Dunn wrote:This recent convective burst with the wave has begun to really sharpen the axis. some southerly inlow is now noted with more NE winds as well. decent mid level broad rotation too. also a bit north of the GFS in terms of the wave axis being mostly over South America on the GFS until it reaches western cariib.

so with it being fully over water allowing vorticity to slowly increase before reaching the western carrib.... tends to point towards faster development.


Right in que..

https://twitter.com/wxpatel/status/1310594937302507524?


Well there you go.. lol


and where does everyone get all these Twitter post from lol. and who are half these people..

I cant stand twitter...


Everyone on Twitter is an “amateur expert” lol.

A question to one or your other posts regarding shear. Didn’t the nhc initially botch the intensity forecast on Michael due to shear when in reality the Shear ended up helping Micheal with ventilation which caused continued RI as he trekked north?
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