ATL: ARTHUR - Post-Tropical - Discussion

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Re: ATL: INVEST 91L - Discussion

#181 Postby Aric Dunn » Sun Jun 29, 2014 8:37 pm

ozonepete wrote:From what I can see on the visible satellite the LLC that we've all been following appears to be stretching out east to west and dissipating. Looks like a new LLC is forming further south under the convection. This makes sense since the shear is much lower only a little further south. You can see that on the visible or RGB satellite images. Obviously the further south the MLC (and its developing LLC) goes the faster it will develop. Its only other obstacle is the mid-level dry air and that is all pretty far north of it, so even that is becoming less of an issue. Surely that's why most of the models, and in turn the NHC, expect this to become a TS eventually. Since it's still dropping southward slowly and you can see a pretty considerable blow-up of convection over the center right now (with DMAX still coming) it looks pretty sure to be a TD by tomorrow. I'm guessing the models don't develop it very quickly because they expect it to remain weak for a few days and thus it would get carried by low level winds over Florida and then slowly up northward just inside the coast. But oh what a difference a hundred miles makes! Since it hasn't drifted SW at all so far today, and if it doesn't before it stalls tomorrow, it could deepen pretty quickly and the steering winds will let it drift and then take it more northward. In that case, as often happens with these June southeast coast systems, the models will be late to catch that it won't move over land.


I agree. Though it needs time to mix out all the dry air it has entrained. its taking all the circ to draw in enough moist air to develop that little convection that periodically develops around the center.. another 24 hr it should look a lot different and well on its way to TS. It definitely can blow a blow quite rapidly.. the gulf stream area is notorious for that. and the sooner it can become vertically developed the better chance it has to come into florida/ the carolina.. if it meanders longer then develop the steering will have changed and a sharp north to ne motion would likely happen.
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Re:

#182 Postby Aric Dunn » Sun Jun 29, 2014 8:50 pm

Nimbus wrote:There is a single hot tower sheared south of where the LLC was at sunset.
Did the LLC relocate under it?


does not look like it.. the mid shear is still a little to high..
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Re: ATL: INVEST 91L - Discussion

#183 Postby 'CaneFreak » Sun Jun 29, 2014 8:51 pm

Thanks!!! Yeah it may take some time to mix out all the dry air but once it does, I think it will be well worth the wait. Hey Aric :P

ozonepete wrote:RUC and other models including GFS have the 700mb and 500mb dry air almost gone by 18Z tomorrow so that should not be an issue really soon. That's why I think it will intensify more rapidly than currently forecast IF it stays at least as far offshore as it is now. Really, if that mid-level moisture forecast holds, this should be able to get to TS easily by tomorrow night or Tuesday at the latest.
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Re: ATL: INVEST 91L - Discussion

#184 Postby TropicalAnalystwx13 » Sun Jun 29, 2014 8:54 pm

I don't see any signs of the low-level circulation dissipating; it still looks vigorous on nighttime RGB loops, for now.
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Re: ATL: INVEST 91L - Discussion

#185 Postby TropicalAnalystwx13 » Sun Jun 29, 2014 8:56 pm

ozonepete wrote:RUC and other models including GFS have the 700mb and 500mb dry air almost gone by 18Z tomorrow so that should not be an issue really soon. That's why I think it will intensify more rapidly than currently forecast IF it stays at least as far offshore as it is now. Really, if that mid-level moisture forecast holds, this should be able to get to TS easily by tomorrow night or Tuesday at the latest.

Agreed. Another thing to consider is that enhanced divergence from the approaching trough that should eventually recurve it may also aid in a faster rate of intensification than most models are thinking. I can hear someone chanting "Hurricane Alex 2004" in the back of my head. :)
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#186 Postby TheStormExpert » Sun Jun 29, 2014 9:00 pm

:darrow: Instability may in fact be a problem after all. With it recently going below normal again.

Image

:darrow: Wind shear is about normal ATM, of course it is trending towards above normal territory as shown below.

Image
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Re: ATL: INVEST 91L - Discussion

#187 Postby TheStormExpert » Sun Jun 29, 2014 9:02 pm

TropicalAnalystwx13 wrote:
ozonepete wrote:RUC and other models including GFS have the 700mb and 500mb dry air almost gone by 18Z tomorrow so that should not be an issue really soon. That's why I think it will intensify more rapidly than currently forecast IF it stays at least as far offshore as it is now. Really, if that mid-level moisture forecast holds, this should be able to get to TS easily by tomorrow night or Tuesday at the latest.

Agreed. Another thing to consider is that enhanced divergence from the approaching trough that should eventually recurve it may also aid in a faster rate of intensification than most models are thinking. I can hear someone chanting "Hurricane Alex 2004" in the back of my head. :)

According to Wikipedia it has a similar setup at the moment IMO.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane_Alex_(2004)
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Re: ATL: INVEST 91L - Discussion

#188 Postby Tampa Bay Hurricane » Sun Jun 29, 2014 9:07 pm

The pressure gradient between 91L and the high over the gulf kicked up the breezes this afternoon. If it gets further south and closer to the east coast some rain from it might reach me.
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Re: ATL: INVEST 91L - Discussion

#189 Postby Annie Oakley » Sun Jun 29, 2014 9:17 pm

Aric Dunn wrote:
ozonepete wrote:From what I can see on the visible satellite the LLC that we've all been following appears to be stretching out east to west and dissipating. Looks like a new LLC is forming further south under the convection. This makes sense since the shear is much lower only a little further south. You can see that on the visible or RGB satellite images. Obviously the further south the MLC (and its developing LLC) goes the faster it will develop. Its only other obstacle is the mid-level dry air and that is all pretty far north of it, so even that is becoming less of an issue. Surely that's why most of the models, and in turn the NHC, expect this to become a TS eventually. Since it's still dropping southward slowly and you can see a pretty considerable blow-up of convection over the center right now (with DMAX still coming) it looks pretty sure to be a TD by tomorrow. I'm guessing the models don't develop it very quickly because they expect it to remain weak for a few days and thus it would get carried by low level winds over Florida and then slowly up northward just inside the coast. But oh what a difference a hundred miles makes! Since it hasn't drifted SW at all so far today, and if it doesn't before it stalls tomorrow, it could deepen pretty quickly and the steering winds will let it drift and then take it more northward. In that case, as often happens with these June southeast coast systems, the models will be late to catch that it won't move over land.


I agree. Though it needs time to mix out all the dry air it has entrained. its taking all the circ to draw in enough moist air to develop that little convection that periodically develops around the center.. another 24 hr it should look a lot different and well on its way to TS. It definitely can blow a blow quite rapidly..
the gulf stream area is notorious for that. and the sooner it can become vertically developed the better chance it has to come into florida/ the carolina.. if it meanders longer then develop the steering will have changed and a sharp north to ne motion would likely happen.


What does that mean-blow a blow.........
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#190 Postby Aric Dunn » Sun Jun 29, 2014 9:20 pm

Blow up .. intensify rapidly
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#191 Postby JonathanBelles » Sun Jun 29, 2014 9:22 pm

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Re:

#192 Postby Annie Oakley » Sun Jun 29, 2014 9:32 pm


From above link:

Why is all of the thunderstorm coverage to the south? Just a little bit of dry air and just a little bit of NW shear. I believe both of those will abate enough to continue organization within 48 hours, but I also think that even with those two negatives slow development was likely to occur. Plenty of warm water and moist air will allow for slow development.

and:

Where is it going and how strong will it get?

It is entrenched in the summer time Bermuda high, which has been pinched off and shoved into the Gulf of Mexico. That high pressure system will push 91L to the south for another day or so before it gets picked up by an incoming trough to the west and north. There were a few Tropical Overshooting Tops to the south and east over the last couple hours, which will sustain this system. Diurnal effects plus very warm waters in the Gulf Stream should allow this system to become a moderate tropical storm within the next 72-96 hours with moderate confidence.
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Re: ATL: INVEST 91L - Discussion

#193 Postby ozonepete » Sun Jun 29, 2014 9:38 pm

TropicalAnalystwx13 wrote:I don't see any signs of the low-level circulation dissipating; it still looks vigorous on nighttime RGB loops, for now.


Hey there Tx13! Yeah I see what you're saying and I may have jumped the gun a little on that aspect, but I suspect there's a couple of other LLCs rotating south of it - not sure which one will take over or if they'll gradually merge but that one doesn't seem positioned well to be the main one and still looks like it's washing out to me. But I do see what you're saying. :wink: It's still too much in the formative stages to figure out where the LLC will gel but I'll go with whatever expert formation man Aric says lol.
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Re: ATL: INVEST 91L - Discussion

#194 Postby ozonepete » Sun Jun 29, 2014 9:47 pm

Still dropping south - more than I thought it would.
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Re: ATL: INVEST 91L - Discussion

#195 Postby Aric Dunn » Sun Jun 29, 2014 9:49 pm

ozonepete wrote:Still dropping south - more than I thought it would.

The longer it stays shallow the more s to sw it will likely make it.
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Re: ATL: INVEST 91L - Discussion

#196 Postby baytownwx » Sun Jun 29, 2014 9:54 pm

ozonepete wrote:Still dropping south - more than I thought it would.


Do you think there is any way the trough(s) will miss picking it up?
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Re: ATL: INVEST 91L - Discussion

#197 Postby SFLcane » Sun Jun 29, 2014 10:04 pm

ozonepete wrote:Still dropping south - more than I thought it would.


indeed..could be at sfl latitude if it keeps droping. In terms of models system not well established to get a good handle on it.
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Re: ATL: INVEST 91L - Discussion

#198 Postby Aric Dunn » Sun Jun 29, 2014 10:05 pm

SFLcane wrote:
ozonepete wrote:Still dropping south - more than I thought it would.


indeed..could be at sfl latitude if it keeps droping. In terms of models system not well established to get a good handle on it.


dont be fooled but the convection out running the circ.. its east of daytona.
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#199 Postby Hammy » Sun Jun 29, 2014 10:07 pm

Convection is weakening and moving away from the LLC pretty quickly. It's looking doubtful with this that the recon will go out tomorrow, and another day after that given the motion and it will probably be onshore.
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#200 Postby Alyono » Sun Jun 29, 2014 10:11 pm

This has actually become less organized throughout the day

As I said yesterday, conditions were hostile and they likely will remain hostile for 24 more hours
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