ATL: EMILY - Remnants

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#5981 Postby Wthrman13 » Wed Aug 03, 2011 11:55 am

TreasureIslandFLGal wrote:Doesn't a human set the starting coordinates and initial direction for the model to run off of? or is that automated (and continuously faulty)? -frustrating....since many of the models use teh GFS as their own starting points. So that means that once again, half of them will be way off and not even worthy to consider other than the synoptic setup they show AROUND Emily.


It doesn't quite work that way with the dynamical models. These models create their initial conditions through a data assimilation process where atmospheric observations are blended with the model's previous best guess in a statistically optimal manner. This means that where observations are sparse, the atmospheric state in the initial conditions of the model, including such things as strength and positions of tropical cyclones and other weather features may not match reality very well. Thus the sometimes poor initialization of the initial positions of hurricanes. This is something of an oversimplification, but you get the general idea. However, that said, there *are* techniques that are used to attempt to semi-manually correct erroneous locations and intensities of TC's. These are called "bogusing" techniques, and they are meant to help with some of these initial condition issues, but they don't completely eliminate the problem.

Ultimately, the pathway to improving the initial conditions is to have more and better observations, and better techniques for assimilating them into the models. Both are extremely active areas of research right now, motivated in no small part to improving hurricane forecasts.
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Re: ATL: EMILY - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#5982 Postby vbhoutex » Wed Aug 03, 2011 11:55 am

Portastorm wrote:I'm with you SoupBone ... I get how a lack of vertical instability can inhibit tropical cyclone development. I'd be curious to know what is the CAUSE of the lack of instability. Weak MJO signal? Nonstop shear? A lack of high pressure? Volatile upper-level winds from different directions? A combination of any of all of these?

I don't know the cause, but there is a definite lack of a MJO signal and it doesn't appear there will be a strong one anytime soon either. Also with the Bermuda high shunted somewhat East it is pushing quite a bit of dust off of the Eastern part of Africa SW towards the CV breeding grounds and W in general. Past that it seems to me, and feel free to correct me if you know better, that there has been an almost constant low level shear across the E Caribbean and adjacent areas. All of those are inhibiting factors. Makes one wonder if we will get as many hurricanes as thought by the prognosticators(including S2K prognosticators). However, with 5 named storms under our belt I don't think the higher number of named storms is in trouble.
Emily still seems to be in trouble to me and I still wonder if we will have anything left after Hispaniola, if she even goes there. Definitely has me still scratching my head. :double:
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Re: ATL: EMILY - Models

#5983 Postby TreasureIslandFLGal » Wed Aug 03, 2011 11:55 am

underthwx wrote:THE LOW-LEVEL CENTER HAS CONTINUED TO MOVE TOWARD THE WEST OR 280
DEGREES AT 12 KNOTS. ASSUMING EMILY CAN MAINTAIN A VERTICALLY DEEP
CIRCULATION
...THE CYCLONE SHOULD SOON TURN MORE TO THE NORTHWEST
AND EVENTUALLY TOWARD THE NORTH AROUND THE PERIPHERY OF THE
SUBTROPICAL RIDGE. ALTHOUGH THERE HAS NOT BEEN A SIGNIFICANT CHANGE
IN THE STEERING PATTERN SOME OF THE GUIDANCE HAS SHIFTED SLIGHTLY
WESTWARD...AND SO HAS THE OFFICIAL FORECAST. THE GFS REMAINS ALONG
THE EASTERN EDGE OF THE GUIDANCE ENVELOPE.

11:00NHC...........my question is........are the models having difficulty responding due to uncertainty of what the strength of the system will be down the road?


Here is their "out". It is not maintaining that deep vertical at all, so their path is going to bust.
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#5984 Postby chris_fit » Wed Aug 03, 2011 11:56 am

URNT15 KNHC 031650
AF306 0805A EMILY HDOB 03 20110803
164030 1742N 06447W 9887 00202 0116 +254 +198 103021 022 /// /// 03
164100 1742N 06446W 9695 00384 0122 +236 +187 102021 022 /// /// 03
164130 1741N 06446W 9186 00858 0127 +217 +175 111024 025 /// /// 03
164200 1740N 06447W 8862 01175 0138 +198 +156 107022 023 /// /// 03
164230 1739N 06449W 8547 01491 0145 +174 +139 121020 021 /// /// 03
164300 1738N 06451W 8195 01851 0144 +156 +126 128020 021 /// /// 03
164330 1737N 06453W 7878 02190 0145 +135 +116 132018 020 /// /// 03
164400 1737N 06455W 7554 02534 0132 +119 +106 145021 021 /// /// 03
164430 1737N 06457W 7282 02840 0127 +104 +095 148023 024 /// /// 03
164500 1736N 06459W 7036 03132 0129 +088 +086 155025 025 /// /// 03
164530 1737N 06501W 6813 03403 0137 +069 //// 150026 026 /// /// 05
164600 1737N 06503W 6596 03673 0139 +056 //// 152027 027 /// /// 05
164630 1738N 06505W 6391 03934 0123 +048 //// 150028 029 /// /// 05
164700 1739N 06507W 6203 04171 0128 +032 //// 155031 031 /// /// 05
164730 1740N 06509W 6016 04414 //// +010 //// 155030 031 /// /// 05
164800 1741N 06510W 5880 04584 //// -002 //// 155029 036 /// /// 05
164830 1742N 06513W 5682 04856 //// -016 //// 168029 031 /// /// 05
164900 1742N 06515W 5528 05085 //// -031 //// 168027 029 /// /// 05
164930 1742N 06517W 5486 05150 0267 -039 //// 151028 031 /// /// 05
165000 1743N 06519W 5486 05146 0264 -042 //// 147033 034 /// /// 05
$$
;
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Re: ATL: EMILY - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#5985 Postby northjaxpro » Wed Aug 03, 2011 11:56 am

ronjon wrote:High res VIS SAT showing the LLC crossing over 70W now. Movement due west and at a fairly good clip. It will pass the southern most point of Hispaniola within 3-4 hrs at this rate. If it doesn't change direction soon, it will miss the big island.

http://rammb.cira.colostate.edu/ramsdis/online/loop_640.asp?product=tropical_ge_1km_center_relative_vis_floater


Yep ronjon, it has now passed 70W longitude. It is looking more and more that Hispaniola will be by-passed to the south and southwest by the LLC and the Windward passage or Eastern Cuba will be where Emily will start to make its long awaited turn. That is, if the LLC can survive the next 12-24 hours.
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#5986 Postby TreasureIslandFLGal » Wed Aug 03, 2011 11:59 am

Wthrman13 - thanks for the explanation. I really wish they had a way to simply plug in that start point manually and let it run from there. Hmmm....too bad there wasn't an online "tool" like that that would let someone simply plug in the start point, current strength, direction, and forward speed. Then run on the background of established synoptics.
now that would be useful! :D
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Re: ATL: EMILY - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#5987 Postby tolakram » Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:04 pm

Last couple of frames, looks to be opening up.

http://wwwghcc.msfc.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/ge ... map=latlon

and still moving west.
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Re: ATL: EMILY - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#5988 Postby psyclone » Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:06 pm

vbhoutex wrote:
Portastorm wrote:I'm with you SoupBone ... I get how a lack of vertical instability can inhibit tropical cyclone development. I'd be curious to know what is the CAUSE of the lack of instability. Weak MJO signal? Nonstop shear? A lack of high pressure? Volatile upper-level winds from different directions? A combination of any of all of these?

I don't know the cause, but there is a definite lack of a MJO signal and it doesn't appear there will be a strong one anytime soon either. Also with the Bermuda high shunted somewhat East it is pushing quite a bit of dust off of the Eastern part of Africa SW towards the CV breeding grounds and W in general. Past that it seems to me, and feel free to correct me if you know better, that there has been an almost constant low level shear across the E Caribbean and adjacent areas. All of those are inhibiting factors. Makes one wonder if we will get as many hurricanes as thought by the prognosticators(including S2K prognosticators). However, with 5 named storms under our belt I don't think the higher number of named storms is in trouble.
Emily still seems to be in trouble to me and I still wonder if we will have anything left after Hispaniola, if she even goes there. Definitely has me still scratching my head. :double:

we've got plenty of time to amass a good collection of hurricanes and major canes. we just started climbing the big climo mountain up at at the begining of august. remember how slow last year was at this point.
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Re: ATL: EMILY - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#5989 Postby vbhoutex » Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:07 pm

Normally the thought process is that disorganized/weak systems will tend to track further West. The continued track being brought to us by the models does not seem to be in agreement with that. I know that there is a building weakness to the North that a TC would usually migrate towards, which we haven't seen yet, so it begs the question, at least for me, will Emily make the NW turn or not? She is a horrible decoupled mess right now imo so I would think that the progged turn may be in trouble. If not why isn't it? Is the weakness that strong that any tropical system no matter how weak would head towards it?
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Re: ATL: EMILY - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#5990 Postby apocalypt-flyer » Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:07 pm

mitchell wrote:I often wonder how reliable those type of data are from 80 years ago.


Ah, I'm thinking the Labour Day Cane data is well accurate especially when it comes to the pressume at landfall. Modern day re-analysis suggests the strongest sustained winds might've been around 185mph rather than 160mph as it was presumed previous to the reanalysis conducted by the NHC.

And I reckon the Labour Day Cane was of the same ilk as Wilma, or as seen just the other day in the WPac Muifa.
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Re: ATL: EMILY - Models

#5991 Postby stormhunter7 » Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:10 pm

too much shear for Emily appears in the short term.. 15kft and higher above the coc... and I clearly see some SW shear arriving very shortly... Until the system gets stacked vertically... the BAMMS suite is my follower for the time being! :)
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Re: ATL: EMILY - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#5992 Postby SouthDadeFish » Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:11 pm

tolakram wrote:Last couple of frames, looks to be opening up.

http://wwwghcc.msfc.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/ge ... map=latlon

and still moving west.


I don't see it opening up at all, but instead convection trying to fire over the center, and slowly it is is making progress. Through my experience with sheared storms such as this, often this is a harbinger of a big burst about to occur over the center in around 3 hours. Let's see if it happens. You are correct though, it is still moving west.
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Re: ATL: EMILY - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#5993 Postby cycloneye » Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:13 pm

psyclone wrote:
vbhoutex wrote:
Portastorm wrote:I'm with you SoupBone ... I get how a lack of vertical instability can inhibit tropical cyclone development. I'd be curious to know what is the CAUSE of the lack of instability. Weak MJO signal? Nonstop shear? A lack of high pressure? Volatile upper-level winds from different directions? A combination of any of all of these?

I don't know the cause, but there is a definite lack of a MJO signal and it doesn't appear there will be a strong one anytime soon either. Also with the Bermuda high shunted somewhat East it is pushing quite a bit of dust off of the Eastern part of Africa SW towards the CV breeding grounds and W in general. Past that it seems to me, and feel free to correct me if you know better, that there has been an almost constant low level shear across the E Caribbean and adjacent areas. All of those are inhibiting factors. Makes one wonder if we will get as many hurricanes as thought by the prognosticators(including S2K prognosticators). However, with 5 named storms under our belt I don't think the higher number of named storms is in trouble.
Emily still seems to be in trouble to me and I still wonder if we will have anything left after Hispaniola, if she even goes there. Definitely has me still scratching my head. :double:

we've got plenty of time to amass a good collection of hurricanes and major canes. we just started climbing the big climo mountain up at at the begining of august. remember how slow last year was at this point.


CSU released today their August forecast and is not a good one in terms of being active in the Atlantic ,especially in the Caribbean. Go to Talking Tropics and check the report.
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Re: ATL: EMILY - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#5994 Postby WxEnthus » Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:14 pm

I mentioned before that if Emily continued moving west I thought her track might end up looking similar to the one Dennis in '81 took and she is resembling it pretty closely so far imo.

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Re: ATL: EMILY - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#5995 Postby Shuriken » Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:16 pm

mitchell wrote:
SouthFLTropics wrote:The Labor Day Hurricane in 1935 went from just becoming a hurricane to a Cat 5 in approximately 24 hours...but obviously it had ideal conditions to work with.
I often wonder how reliable those type of data are from 80 years ago.
In 2008, Gustav jumped +75kts in 30hrs with +50 of it coming in 18hrs:

19 18.30 -78.40 08/29/12Z 50 989 TROPICAL STORM
20 18.80 -79.20 08/29/18Z 65 984 HURRICANE-1
21 19.20 -80.00 08/30/00Z 75 975 HURRICANE-1
22 19.70 -80.80 08/30/06Z 85 968 HURRICANE-2
23 20.70 -81.60 08/30/12Z 110 955 HURRICANE-3
24 21.60 -82.50 08/30/18Z 125 943 HURRICANE-4

http://weather.unisys.com/hurricane/atl ... /track.dat
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#5996 Postby OuterBanker » Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:20 pm

Emily is no more than an open wave at this point. It's mid level should follow the tpc path while the llc should go around the west end of Haiti. If the meet afterwards, who knows. I guess models are insisting on this happening, I don't know. What a mess, guess I'll get my dartboard out.

I'm just gonna wait until it's encounter with Haiti/DR.

If I were a gambling man I wouldn't put my money on Emily as the first landfalling hurricane since 08.

Stay tuned for "As the storm turns".
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#5997 Postby rockyman » Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:24 pm

Can an "open wave" have an LLC?
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#5998 Postby lebron23 » Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:24 pm

lol. this was suppose to be a "big threat" to the U.S??
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Re:

#5999 Postby SouthDadeFish » Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:24 pm

OuterBanker wrote:Emily is no more than an open wave at this point. It's mid level should follow the tpc path while the llc should go around the west end of Haiti. If the meet afterwards, who knows. I guess models are insisting on this happening, I don't know. What a mess, guess I'll get my dartboard out.

I'm just gonna wait until it's encounter with Haiti/DR.

If I were a gambling man I wouldn't put my money on Emily as the first landfalling hurricane since 08.

Stay tuned for "As the storm turns".


Since when do open waves have a closed circulation center? people on this board are acting like they've never seen a sheared TS before...
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Re: ATL: EMILY - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#6000 Postby ncweatherwizard » Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:25 pm

cycloneye wrote:
psyclone wrote:
vbhoutex wrote:I don't know the cause, but there is a definite lack of a MJO signal and it doesn't appear there will be a strong one anytime soon either. Also with the Bermuda high shunted somewhat East it is pushing quite a bit of dust off of the Eastern part of Africa SW towards the CV breeding grounds and W in general. Past that it seems to me, and feel free to correct me if you know better, that there has been an almost constant low level shear across the E Caribbean and adjacent areas. All of those are inhibiting factors. Makes one wonder if we will get as many hurricanes as thought by the prognosticators(including S2K prognosticators). However, with 5 named storms under our belt I don't think the higher number of named storms is in trouble.
Emily still seems to be in trouble to me and I still wonder if we will have anything left after Hispaniola, if she even goes there. Definitely has me still scratching my head. :double:

we've got plenty of time to amass a good collection of hurricanes and major canes. we just started climbing the big climo mountain up at at the begining of august. remember how slow last year was at this point.


CSU released today their August forecast and is not a good one in terms of being active in the Atlantic ,especially in the Caribbean. Go to Talking Tropics and check the report.


Here is the definition of vertical instability listed on the NOAA/CIRA/RAMMB website that they use to make the figures shown previously--"VERTICAL INSTABILITY: The vertical average temperature difference between the equivalent potential temperature of a parcel lifted from the surface to 200 hPa, and the saturation equivalent potential temperature of the environment, for each 5° by 5° sub-region."

So to put it into simpler terms: It's a measure of how much warmer and how much wetter a parcel is than it's environment. Warm, moist parcels are less dense.
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