ATL: INVEST 95L - DISCUSSION

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#461 Postby CrazyC83 » Mon Jul 05, 2010 5:04 pm

djones65 wrote:Wxman57, 12,500 feet, wouldn't that be similar to a recon plane at 700 mb or 10000 feet? Using a .90 conversion factor, or even a .85 would be an accurate way to measure potential surface winds. If the Doppler velocities were 40 knots or so then surface winds could reasonably be estimated at 34 knots. This storm is a very small compact system. We have a large network of ship, buoys, and oil platforms offering observations, but relative to the size of the circulation and the area being affected, they are still few and far between. If this was a larger circulation then I would agree that the surface obs do not substantiate a storm, but this is a tiny system and I believe it is possible for much stronger winds to exist near the center where no obs are being made. Even in your satellite and observation graphic, there were only 7 surface obs being utilized over an area in excess of 200 miles. That is a lot of "holes" for stronger winds to be observed. With all that being said, I thought this system was a tropical storm yesterday very similar to Marco of 2008 which many others posted similar thoughts. Today it is not as well organized but I definitely think it is a tropical depression, and I would not at all be surprised if tropical storm force winds were observed around the center especially to the east.


At 12,500 feet, the surface winds would be about 95% of the radar estimate. The center bands are not TS-intensity by any measure though.

The Grand Isle band is the strongest on radar, with winds around 40 kt at 7,500 feet (a reduction of 85% puts it at 34 kt, right on the TD-TS line.)
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Re: ATL: INVEST 95L - DISCUSSION

#462 Postby KWT » Mon Jul 05, 2010 5:09 pm

Macrocane wrote:Maybe in the post season analysis they will upgrade it to TD or TS, in that case this would be the 2nd tropical cyclone of the season.


Well I think there was an arguement for it being a TD yesterday as wxman57 has said before. I really wouldn't be surprised if they do upgrade it post season...then again we thought that with the invest last year in May that came ashore as probable a TC...

Effects will be the same regardless of whether it is offically upgraded or not anyway.
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Re: Re:

#463 Postby wxman57 » Mon Jul 05, 2010 5:11 pm

CrazyC83 wrote:
At 12,500 feet, the surface winds would be about 95% of the radar estimate. The center bands are not TS-intensity by any measure though.

The Grand Isle band is the strongest on radar, with winds around 40 kt at 7,500 feet (a reduction of 85% puts it at 34 kt, right on the TD-TS line.)


That may be the case if very strong convection was bringing the wind down to the surface in the eyewall of a hurricane. But that's not the case here. There are plenty of actual real-live observations directly within the area of squalls near Grand Isle and they are all in the 20-25 kt range. I'd go with actual obs over a wind reduction from 12,500 ft.
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Re: ATL: INVEST 95L - DISCUSSION

#464 Postby Steve » Mon Jul 05, 2010 5:11 pm

This is just some of the rain. Hopefully it's the other video I shot. It still sucks, but it codifies radar.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3kh7jpXVVs
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#465 Postby HURAKAN » Mon Jul 05, 2010 5:13 pm

Image

Nice sat image
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Re: ATL: INVEST 95L - DISCUSSION

#466 Postby wxman57 » Mon Jul 05, 2010 5:15 pm

Here's a shot with a few more obs plotted. Note the 20-25 kts in heaviest squalls just east of the center, and note the two stations west of the center with winds blowing to the west and west-northwest. Not indicative of a well-defined LLC. One argument that it's not even a TD:

Image
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#467 Postby HURAKAN » Mon Jul 05, 2010 5:19 pm

Image

Loop
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Re: ATL: INVEST 95L - DISCUSSION

#468 Postby ToxicTiger » Mon Jul 05, 2010 5:20 pm

Reality check please. Does this look like a tropical cyclone that needs to be named right now, knowing that it will not get any stronger or better organized, as it is currently making landfall?

Image
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#469 Postby Cyclone1 » Mon Jul 05, 2010 5:21 pm

Wxman 57 and ToxicTiger may be selling me, now that I look at it.
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Re: ATL: INVEST 95L - DISCUSSION

#470 Postby brunota2003 » Mon Jul 05, 2010 5:23 pm

wxman57 wrote:Here's a shot with a few more obs plotted. Note the 20-25 kts in heaviest squalls just east of the center, and note the two stations west of the center with winds blowing to the west and west-northwest. Not indicative of a well-defined LLC. One argument that it's not even a TD:

Image

That is one thing I was wondering about...I couldn't find any obs showing a closed off circulation at the surface from the buoy data, let alone a well defined one. And earlier, that station was reporting a 15 knot wind...the winds on the NW/W side of the low are light and variable at best.
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#471 Postby HURAKAN » Mon Jul 05, 2010 5:30 pm

If they had no intention in upgrading 95L, then the STWO was unnecessary.
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#472 Postby Stormcenter » Mon Jul 05, 2010 5:31 pm

Another blow up of convection to east of the center of circulation.
Anyway as I've said before I've seen a lot (and I mean a lot) worse looking and
convection wise systems get classified in the past. IMO

http://www.rap.ucar.edu/weather/satelli ... uration=12
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Re:

#473 Postby hurricanefloyd5 » Mon Jul 05, 2010 5:32 pm

HURAKAN wrote:If they had no intention in upgrading 95L, then the STWO was unnecessary.





I agree
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Re: ATL: INVEST 95L - DISCUSSION

#474 Postby ozonepete » Mon Jul 05, 2010 5:32 pm

brunota2003 wrote:
wxman57 wrote:Here's a shot with a few more obs plotted. Note the 20-25 kts in heaviest squalls just east of the center, and note the two stations west of the center with winds blowing to the west and west-northwest. Not indicative of a well-defined LLC. One argument that it's not even a TD:

Image

That is one thing I was wondering about...I couldn't find any obs showing a closed off circulation at the surface from the buoy data, let alone a well defined one. And earlier, that station was reporting a 15 knot wind...the winds on the NW/W side of the low are light and variable at best.


But remember the size is so small. We can't be sure there isn't a very small closed low there - we just don't have enough readings. I also think the NHC is concerned that this could strengthen into a TS even somewhat inland. It is a small storm moving over very high theta-e air that sits ove that marshland. Remember Erin over Oklahoma...
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#475 Postby CrazyC83 » Mon Jul 05, 2010 5:34 pm

Even if this is a tropical storm, then only a tiny area will see TS-force winds, and that would be in the strongest band over marshland right now. The marshes will not weaken a weak TS either.
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#476 Postby djones65 » Mon Jul 05, 2010 5:35 pm

Actually if they had intended to upgrade it then there would have been no need for the STWO, they would have simply upgraded it. Since they do not intend to upgrade the necessity of the STWO is to alert residents that tropical storm conditions are possible this evening as it is moving inland. At least that's how I interpret it...
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Re:

#477 Postby HURAKAN » Mon Jul 05, 2010 5:38 pm

djones65 wrote:Actually if they had intended to upgrade it then there would have been no need for the STWO, they would have simply upgraded it. Since they do not intend to upgrade the necessity of the STWO is to alert residents that tropical storm conditions are possible this evening as it is moving inland. At least that's how I interpret it...


That sounds more like the job of the NWS.
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Re: ATL: INVEST 95L - DISCUSSION

#478 Postby Steve » Mon Jul 05, 2010 5:39 pm

>>I couldn't find any obs showing a closed off circulation at the surface from the buoy data, let alone a well defined one. And earlier, that station was reporting a 15 knot wind...the winds on the NW/W side of the low are light and variable at best.

It's pretty obvious that the low was closed off (per blatant visible), but the circulation is extremely small. You see inflow all around and into the center, and that's not upper or mid level stuff there. We may need a ship ob from the time period to close it off, but the entire circulation may well be between buoys and observation stations. I agree that it wasn't probably a tropical storm, but I'm about 95% sure it was a depression coming in.
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#479 Postby HURAKAN » Mon Jul 05, 2010 5:41 pm

Image

Latest
Last edited by HURAKAN on Mon Jul 05, 2010 5:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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#480 Postby KWT » Mon Jul 05, 2010 5:41 pm

Exactly ozonepete, this system probably has a tiny region of west winds and more then likely the surface circulation doesn't even extend far enough west for the ob to show it...I've that happen many times with very small systems, the obs would suggest there isn't a LLC but when recon goes into it there is a weak small LLC there.

We will know soon enough when it goes overland and we get a huge amount of obs from many weather stations out there.

ps, the reason they probably went to 60% may only be for verification stakes if they do upgrade the system post-season. Yeah I know, rather cynical!
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