Bitticanes; who's the smallest on record?

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wobblehead
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Bitticanes; who's the smallest on record?

#1 Postby wobblehead » Thu Apr 02, 2009 8:39 pm

Since record keeping began which hurricane has the distinction of being the smallest on record in the Atlantic Basin?
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Re: Bitticanes; who's the smallest on record?

#2 Postby wobblehead » Thu Apr 02, 2009 9:17 pm

Qualification being maximum radius of sustained hurricane force winds from storm center measured in any quadrant.
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#3 Postby Just Joshing You » Thu Apr 02, 2009 9:53 pm

Tropical Storm Marco, 2008, is the smallest TS. It was a very strong one, however.
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#4 Postby RL3AO » Thu Apr 02, 2009 10:50 pm

Wilma's hurricane force winds only went out 15 miles at peak intensity.
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Re: Bitticanes; who's the smallest on record?

#5 Postby HurricaneBill » Fri Apr 03, 2009 2:36 am

Hurricane Iris in 2001 was a tiny storm.
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Re: Bitticanes; who's the smallest on record?

#6 Postby wxman57 » Fri Apr 03, 2009 7:18 am

It's an easy question to answer. All you have to do is to look at the best track database that lists 34, 50, and 64kt radii for all storms 1851-1987:

ftp://rammftp.cira.colostate.edu/demari ... oradii.txt

And from 1987-2008:

ftp://rammftp.cira.colostate.edu/demari ... k_atlc.txt

However, keep in mind that prior to the past few decades, our ability to actually measure surface winds well just didn't exist. Some might argue that we still can't measure them well. Certainly, recon allows for only very limited observations during a storm's life cycle.

From the database:
Debby '88 - hurricane force winds 10nm in all quads (with recon)
Jose '99 - hurricane force in NE quad only of 20nm (with recon)
Olga '01 - hurricane force in NE quad only of 20nm (with recon)
Isidore '02 - hurricane force in NE quad only of 15nm (with recon)
Lili '02 - hurricane force in NE quad only of 15nm (with recon)
Gaston '04 - hurricane force NE/SE of only 10nm (with recon)
Katrina '05 - hurricane force winds 10nm in all quads (with recon)
Maria '05 - hurricane force winds 10nm in all quads (with recon)
Ernesto '06 - hurricane force winds in NE quad only of 10nm (with recon)
Humberto '06 - hurricane force winds in NE quad only of 15nm (with recon)

So, the smallest were Gaston, Katrina, Maria, and Ernesto - each with max possible areal coverage of about 80 square miles of hurricane force winds.
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Re: Bitticanes; who's the smallest on record?

#7 Postby wxman57 » Fri Apr 03, 2009 8:14 am

A very interesting statistic from scanning the best track database. I had created a graphic of the average radius of hurricane force winds for selected storms from about 1960-2008. Looking at the graphic, I thought it was interesting how uniform the storms were in size prior to 1988 (modern recon that could measure surface winds). So I went back and counted the number of hurricanes with 74+ mph radii of 25nm or less from 1851-2007. Results are somewhat stunning:

20 years - 1988-2007 - 107 hurricanes with 74 mph radius 25nm or less at one time

136 years - 1851-1987 - 1 hurricane with 74 mph radius of 25nm or less (in 1933)

Not a SINGLE hurricane with 74 mph radius of 25 nm or less even between 1950-1987 WITH RECON! Just goes to show you how poorly we measured surface winds a few decades ago.

Image
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Re: Bitticanes; who's the smallest on record?

#8 Postby Ed Mahmoud » Fri Apr 03, 2009 8:20 am

The logic seems off there.

To say that a hurricane, just as it gained hurricane strength from tropical storm strength, has a narrow radius of maximum winds, well, that is obviously intuitively obvious, (per the Department of Redundancy Department) but to say Katrina of 2005 ranks among the smallest hurricanes just seems a little off to me.


With all due respect. The 'one time' thing just as a storm gained hurricane intensity seems wrong.
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Re: Bitticanes; who's the smallest on record?

#9 Postby wxman57 » Fri Apr 03, 2009 8:52 am

Ed Mahmoud wrote:The logic seems off there.

To say that a hurricane, just as it gained hurricane strength from tropical storm strength, has a narrow radius of maximum winds, well, that is obviously intuitively obvious, (per the Department of Redundancy Department) but to say Katrina of 2005 ranks among the smallest hurricanes just seems a little off to me.

With all due respect. The 'one time' thing just as a storm gained hurricane intensity seems wrong.


I was only mentioning the facts, Ed. The thread topic asked what the smallest hurricane on record was, without qualification of it being that hurricane's peak size. Hurricanes are always smaller as they're developing and dissipating. Even so, a number of hurricanes from 1988-2007 had 74+ mph radii less than 25nm at peak intensity. What I found quite interesting is the complete lack of a single hurricane with a 25nm radius (or less) of hurricane force winds AT ANY TIME in its life, even with recon, from 1950-1987. The point is that the best track database should be taken with a grain of salt as far as precise wind radii or intensity values prior to the era of modern recon.
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#10 Postby Derek Ortt » Fri Apr 03, 2009 9:49 am

Slight correction on Olga 2001. I do not believe there was recon in that storm since ti was a hurricane in the CA
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#11 Postby Derek Ortt » Fri Apr 03, 2009 9:50 am

katrina was a very small hurricane... when it amde first landfall at the Dade/Broward County line
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Re:

#12 Postby Ed Mahmoud » Fri Apr 03, 2009 10:37 am

Derek Ortt wrote:katrina was a very small hurricane... when it amde first landfall at the Dade/Broward County line



That one time thing again.


We had a small rainband, clearly part of Katrina's circulation, come through Houston when it was making landfall in Mississippi/Louisiana. We were nowhere near the high winds, of course, but I can claim to have lived through Hurricane Katrina. Sort of.


I will say, when all the Katrina evacuees were on the highways here for months after (lots of Louisiana plates), I survived Katrina induced traffic.
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Re:

#13 Postby wxman57 » Fri Apr 03, 2009 2:20 pm

Derek Ortt wrote:Slight correction on Olga 2001. I do not believe there was recon in that storm since ti was a hurricane in the CA


I wasn't sure about recon in Olga. It looked to be on the borderline of the recon area at the time (between 55-60W). Sure is interesting that there were no small hurricanes prior to 1988, though. And some think we can use the database going back 50-100 years to identify trends in hurricane size and intensity...
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Re: Re:

#14 Postby Derek Ortt » Fri Apr 03, 2009 2:46 pm

wxman57 wrote:
Derek Ortt wrote:Slight correction on Olga 2001. I do not believe there was recon in that storm since ti was a hurricane in the CA


I wasn't sure about recon in Olga. It looked to be on the borderline of the recon area at the time (between 55-60W). Sure is interesting that there were no small hurricanes prior to 1988, though. And some think we can use the database going back 50-100 years to identify trends in hurricane size and intensity...


I wouldn't trust the bt on size even last season. H-WIND has helped, but the obs still only cover less than 1% of the total storm area
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Re: Re:

#15 Postby Ed Mahmoud » Fri Apr 03, 2009 2:46 pm

wxman57 wrote:
Derek Ortt wrote:Slight correction on Olga 2001. I do not believe there was recon in that storm since ti was a hurricane in the CA


I wasn't sure about recon in Olga. It looked to be on the borderline of the recon area at the time (between 55-60W). Sure is interesting that there were no small hurricanes prior to 1988, though. And some think we can use the database going back 50-100 years to identify trends in hurricane size and intensity...



And from my understanding through the 1950s when the storms were known to be strong, aircraft got a radar fix on the eye from the periphery. So some of the stronger storms than were not penetrated by recon.
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Re: Bitticanes; who's the smallest on record?

#16 Postby Ptarmigan » Fri Apr 03, 2009 5:35 pm

It's hard to believe that Katrina is one of the smallest hurricane and exploded into one of the largest hurricanes. It had hurricane force winds extending up to 10 miles and when it ravaged the Gulf Coast, it had hurricane force winds extending up to 125 miles.
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Re: Bitticanes; who's the smallest on record?

#17 Postby Ptarmigan » Fri Apr 03, 2009 5:39 pm

wxman57 wrote:It's an easy question to answer. All you have to do is to look at the best track database that lists 34, 50, and 64kt radii for all storms 1851-1987:

ftp://rammftp.cira.colostate.edu/demari ... oradii.txt

And from 1987-2008:

ftp://rammftp.cira.colostate.edu/demari ... k_atlc.txt

However, keep in mind that prior to the past few decades, our ability to actually measure surface winds well just didn't exist. Some might argue that we still can't measure them well. Certainly, recon allows for only very limited observations during a storm's life cycle.

From the database:
Debby '88 - hurricane force winds 10nm in all quads (with recon)
Jose '99 - hurricane force in NE quad only of 20nm (with recon)
Olga '01 - hurricane force in NE quad only of 20nm (with recon)
Isidore '02 - hurricane force in NE quad only of 15nm (with recon)
Lili '02 - hurricane force in NE quad only of 15nm (with recon)
Gaston '04 - hurricane force NE/SE of only 10nm (with recon)
Katrina '05 - hurricane force winds 10nm in all quads (with recon)
Maria '05 - hurricane force winds 10nm in all quads (with recon)
Ernesto '06 - hurricane force winds in NE quad only of 10nm (with recon)
Humberto '06 - hurricane force winds in NE quad only of 15nm (with recon)

So, the smallest were Gaston, Katrina, Maria, and Ernesto - each with max possible areal coverage of about 80 square miles of hurricane force winds.


Olga '01 started out as a large extratropical storm with winds exteding up to 600 nm!
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#18 Postby Derek Ortt » Fri Apr 03, 2009 9:35 pm

olga was a small TC embedded within a larger non-tropical system (and directly underneath an upper low)
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Re: Re:

#19 Postby somethingfunny » Sat Apr 04, 2009 1:03 am

wxman57 wrote:Sure is interesting that there were no small hurricanes prior to 1988, though. And some think we can use the database going back 50-100 years to identify trends in hurricane size and intensity...


I'm not sure that recon data was nearly as comprehensive as it is today. Although the chart you posted estimates them to be average-to-large hurricanes, I can't really imagine that a short-lived storm like Audrey, Celia, or Ethel would be anywhere near as large as long-track systems like Betsy or Georges.
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Re: Re:

#20 Postby wxman57 » Sat Apr 04, 2009 12:28 pm

somethingfunny wrote:
wxman57 wrote:Sure is interesting that there were no small hurricanes prior to 1988, though. And some think we can use the database going back 50-100 years to identify trends in hurricane size and intensity...


I'm not sure that recon data was nearly as comprehensive as it is today. Although the chart you posted estimates them to be average-to-large hurricanes, I can't really imagine that a short-lived storm like Audrey, Celia, or Ethel would be anywhere near as large as long-track systems like Betsy or Georges.


That was my point - recon data was pitifully inadequate in the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, and even 90s in terms of really identifying a hurricane's surface wind field. Even now, we sample only a fraction of the winds in a hurricane.
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