Southern Plains winter wx thread (2008-2009)

Winter Weather Discussion

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Ed Mahmoud

Re: Re:

#921 Postby Ed Mahmoud » Sat Jan 10, 2009 2:24 pm

somethingfunny wrote:
Ed Mahmoud wrote:
southerngale wrote:Ed, are you going to be in NYC next week?



I wish. But besides airfare, I'd need more than a Houston style winter hoodie sweatshirt.


Wear two! :wink:

Underlying layers can make jeans and a hoodie mighty warm so long as your head's covered.



Won't be there, but I'll try to leave work a little early Friday, to watch TV national news and then TWC. -10ºF in NYC, like a Cat 3 hititng Suffolk County, would lead the news unless Germany invades Poland.


I just hope the 120 year old watermains of Manhattan are up to the task of handling cold weather like NYC hasn't seen in 75 years.
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Re: One or more arctic blasts on the way?

#922 Postby srainhoutx » Sat Jan 10, 2009 3:20 pm

12Z ECMWF

144 hours
Image
168 hours
Image
192 hours
Image
216 hours
Image
240 hours
Image

HPC thoughts this afternoon...

EXTENDED FORECAST DISCUSSION
NWS HYDROMETEOROLOGICAL PREDICTION CENTER CAMP SPRINGS MD
230 PM EST SAT JAN 10 2009

VALID 12Z TUE JAN 13 2009 - 12Z SAT JAN 17 2009

FINAL GRAPHICS STAYED WITH THE BLEND USED IN THE UPDATED PRELIM
PROGS. ALL NEW 12Z GUIDANCE SUPPORTS OUR EARLIER REASONING...WITH
THE EXCEPTION OF SHORTWAVE TIMING DIFFERENCES MAINLY DAYS 6-7.
A
VERY HIGH AMPLITUDE W COAST OF NOAM RIDGE/ERN NOAM TROF ALONG 80W
WILL GOVERN THE PATTERN OVER THE LOWER 48 THIS NEXT WEEK.



HIGHER THAN AVERAGE UNCERTAINTY IN THE DAY-TO-DAY SHORTWAVE
DETAILS ACCOMPANIES THIS PACKAGE DESPITE OOD DETERMINISTIC AND
ENSEMBLE SUPPORT FOR A HIGHLY AMPLIFIED W COAST RIDGE /ERN NOAM
TROF CONTINUING THROUGH THE MEDIUM RANGE PERIOD
.
RECENT GFS RUNS
APPEAR TO ALLOW SHORTWAVE TROUGHS TO BEGIN BREAKING THROUGH THE
MEAN WEST COAST UPPER RIDGE TOO QUICKLY BY DAY 6. THIS EROSION OF
THE UPPER RIDGE APPEARS UNREALISTIC GIVEN ITS STRENGTH IN THE 3-5
DAY PERIOD.

12Z MODELS: THE NEW 12Z GFS APPEARS TO FOLLOW ITS OWN CONTINUITY
REASONABLY WELL THRU DAY 5 BUT WE THINK THAT IT MAY STILL BE
ALLOWING TOO MUCH ENERGY TO COME THROUGH THE MEAN WRN CANADIAN
RIDGE POSITION AROUND FRI DAY 6. THE 12Z CANADIAN HOLDS ONTO
HIGHER HEIGHTS DAYS 5-6 OVER THE PACIFIC NW...IN FACT IT HAS A
CLOSED 588DM CONTOUR OVER WA/NRN FOR FRI DAY 6! THE UKMET ALSO
HOLDS ONTO MORE RIDGE OVER WRN CANADA THAN THE GFS THU DAY 5. THE
12Z/10 ECMWF HAS GOOD CONTINUITY WITH ITS PREVIOUS RUN THRU EARLY
DAY 6...BUT BEGINS TO SHOW SOME LOWER CONFIDENCE SHORTWAVE
ACTIVITY LATER DAY 6 AND DAY 7 IN THE FAST FLOW PATTERN ACROSS
NOAM.

...HIGHLIGHTS...

A HIGH AMPLITUDE COLD PATTERN WILL GRIP THE CENTRAL AND ERN
PORTIONS OF THE LOWER 48 STATES
MUCH OF THIS MEDIUM RANGE PERIOD. CHUNKS OF ARCTIC HIGH PRES WILL
DROP SSE OUT OF CANADA INTO THE NRN PLAINS...THEN GRADUALLY
RECURVE ON A MORE ESE TRACK IN THE FAST CYCLONIC FLOW OF THE ERN
CONUS LONGWAVE TROF. A CLIPPER SYS RACING CYCLONICALLY SEWD IN
THIS FAST FLOW LATE WED INTO EARLY THU WILL SEPARATE THE FIRST
ARCTIC OUTBREAK FROM A SECOND COLDER ONE THAT WILL BE PLUNGING
INTO THE N CENTRAL AND GREAT LAKES REGIONS THU. THIS SECOND SHOT
OF COLD AIR WILL LIKELY BE THE COLDEST OF THE WINTER SO FAR FOR
MANY LOCATIONS. MAXIMUM TEMP DEPARTURES FROM NORMAL OF -15 TO -25
WILL BE COMMON THU/FRI IN THE NE QUADRANT OF THE NATION. MINIMUM
TEMP DEPARTURES FROM NORMAL WILL NOT BE AS EXTREME.
BY FRI AM
ALMOST THE ENTIRE AREA FROM THE OH VLY AND MID ATLANTIC REGIONS
NWD THRU THE GREAT LAKES AND NEW ENG WILL SEE THICKNESSES LOWER
THAN 500 DECAMETERS. 850MB TEMPS FROM THE 12Z/10 ECMWF FOR FRI AM
SHOWS MOST OF THE REGION NORTH OF LATITUDE 38N COLDER THAN
-18C...WITH INTERIOR NEW ENG COLDER THAN -24C.

FLOOD
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#923 Postby southerngale » Sat Jan 10, 2009 3:27 pm

When you post model images, please at least give a brief explanation of what they're showing, for those who can't read the maps very well, or at all. Many would appreciate it. Thanks.
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Re:

#924 Postby srainhoutx » Sat Jan 10, 2009 3:37 pm

southerngale wrote:When you post model images, please at least give a brief explanation of what they're showing, for those who can't read the maps very well, or at all. Many would appreciate it. Thanks.


Sorry southerngale. :wink: The 12Z EC is breaking down the W Coast Ridge, hence a quicker shot of cold air. Is this right? There are still too many unknowns at this time. What is known that there is a lot of Cold Air in Alaska and NW Canada. I believe the models are not handling this event very well at this time due to the nature of upstream issues. HPC points this out in todays Update. Placement of the Polar Vortex over NE Canada/Great Lakes and shortwaves that will rotate around the PV are often under modeled in this range. These shortwaves often dig much further SW in this range leading to the "colder air" sliding further S behind each one along the lee side of the Rockies. I suspect by Monday/Tuesday we will have a much better grasp on this Cold Airmass. While the NW to SE flow "would suggest" a glacing shot of Colder Air for areas W and S of the Southern Plains. But as has been stated by other posters, this is still very much not set in stone as of today. Stay Tuned.
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Re: One or more arctic blasts on the way?

#925 Postby RL3AO » Sat Jan 10, 2009 9:33 pm

NWS forecast...

Tuesday: Mostly sunny and cold, with a high near 1.

Tuesday Night: A 50 percent chance of snow. Mostly cloudy, with a low around -8.

Wednesday: A chance of snow. Partly sunny and cold, with a high near 4.

Wednesday Night: Mostly clear, with a low around -13.

Thursday: Sunny and cold, with a high near 0.

Thursday Night: Mostly clear, with a low around -22.

Friday: Mostly sunny and cold, with a high near 2.

Friday Night: Partly cloudy, with a low around -5.

That will be fun going out that night.
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Re:

#926 Postby Miss Mary » Sat Jan 10, 2009 10:39 pm

southerngale wrote:When you post model images, please at least give a brief explanation of what they're showing, for those who can't read the maps very well, or at all. Many would appreciate it. Thanks.


Thanks! I've been one of those members who should know what those maps indicate.....but honestly? I have no clue! I always want to reply with - laymen's terms please!
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#927 Postby Tampa Bay Hurricane » Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:01 pm

SNOW FLURRIES Forecasted for TAMPA, FLORIDA on January 23-24,
by ACCUWEATHER:

http://www.accuweather.com/us/fl/tampa/ ... 1&metric=0
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Re:

#928 Postby gboudx » Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:04 pm

Tampa Bay Hurricane wrote:SNOW FLURRIES Forecasted for TAMPA, FLORIDA on January 23-24,
by ACCUWEATHER:

http://www.accuweather.com/us/fl/tampa/ ... 1&metric=0


Flurry. Singular.

High: 57 °F RealFeel®: 47 °F
Mostly cloudy with a flurry

Don't blink. :)
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Re: Re:

#929 Postby Brent » Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:12 pm

gboudx wrote:
Tampa Bay Hurricane wrote:SNOW FLURRIES Forecasted for TAMPA, FLORIDA on January 23-24,
by ACCUWEATHER:

http://www.accuweather.com/us/fl/tampa/ ... 1&metric=0


Flurry. Singular.

High: 57 °F RealFeel®: 47 °F
Mostly cloudy with a flurry

Don't blink. :)


With a high of 57? LOL
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Re: Re:

#930 Postby Tampa Bay Hurricane » Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:21 pm

Brent wrote:
gboudx wrote:
Tampa Bay Hurricane wrote:SNOW FLURRIES Forecasted for TAMPA, FLORIDA on January 23-24,
by ACCUWEATHER:

http://www.accuweather.com/us/fl/tampa/ ... 1&metric=0


Flurry. Singular.

High: 57 °F RealFeel®: 47 °F
Mostly cloudy with a flurry

Don't blink. :)


With a high of 57? LOL


The low the previous night is 35*F, with a wind chill factor of 20*F...
that is marginal...wow if this verified...I would go crazy!!!!!!!! :cheesy:
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#931 Postby JonathanBelles » Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:26 pm

I just about literally roflmao at this one. Why in the world do you still go to accuweather for anything?
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Re:

#932 Postby Tampa Bay Hurricane » Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:44 pm

fact789 wrote:I just about literally roflmao at this one. Why in the world do you still go to accuweather for anything?


They have been on the mark about this cold spell coming down...and I can't ever recall
a time in my life when I saw AccuWx forecast a "flurry" for tampa...even if it's accuweather
it rocks my hot florida socks!!!! :cheesy:
If this verifies I'm going to run around my college campus in a yeti costume...
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Ed Mahmoud

Re: One or more arctic blasts on the way?

#933 Postby Ed Mahmoud » Sun Jan 11, 2009 8:38 am

Latest GFS only about -5ºF in NYC. Which would still be the coldest there in my lifetime. ( I saw a -2ºF when I actually lived in the suburbs in the 1970s)


Canadian and Euro generally seem to support this based on thicknesses below 500 DM and 850 mb temps around -22º

Image

2/15/1943 had a -8ºF in NYC, so we're still going back to before a major NY/NE hurricane.


So it is still awfully rare.
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Ed Mahmoud

Re: One or more arctic blasts on the way?

#934 Postby Ed Mahmoud » Sun Jan 11, 2009 8:56 am

A small cut-n-paste from JB, nothing that violates the PPV terms of service


By the way, if the -78 stands at TOK it would be the coldest temp ever in Alaska, and be only 3 shy of the -81 at Snag in the northwest territories for the coldest north American temp ever.



NPR report of -78ºF in Tok. (Pronounced Toke)
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Re:

#935 Postby shibumi » Sun Jan 11, 2009 9:20 am

fact789 wrote:I just about literally roflmao at this one. Why in the world do you still go to accuweather for anything?


It has nothing to do with Accuweather....that is the lovely GFS our government bets the farm on.

Any 'forecast" anywhere in the 10-15 day range is from the GFS (or based on it) as it is the only model that goes out that far.
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Re: One or more arctic blasts on the way?

#936 Postby lrak » Sun Jan 11, 2009 10:03 am

Do you guys think that far S Texas willl participate? Our local NWS graphics do not anticipate this coming our way. I planted a lot of tender veggies and I sure don't want all that work to go into the ice box for a couple of day. It seems every time an arctic outbreak is forcasted a lot of the cold air slides down the eastern side of the continental divide all the way down into the Rio Grande Valley.

http://forecast.weather.gov/MapClick.ph ... &map.y=167

Thanks

Karl
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Re: One or more arctic blasts on the way?

#937 Postby Portastorm » Sun Jan 11, 2009 10:51 am

lrak wrote:Do you guys think that far S Texas willl participate? Our local NWS graphics do not anticipate this coming our way. I planted a lot of tender veggies and I sure don't want all that work to go into the ice box for a couple of day. It seems every time an arctic outbreak is forcasted a lot of the cold air slides down the eastern side of the continental divide all the way down into the Rio Grande Valley.

http://forecast.weather.gov/MapClick.ph ... &map.y=167

Thanks

Karl


Well Karl, that is the $10,000 question that we've all been struggling with the last few days. There is conventional meteorological wisdom that says an airmass this cold, this dense will plunge south more than east (as you indicate). Then there is the computer models which for two days now have said the opposite ... however, the latest 0z Canadian model had the cold air coming straight down the Plains. Will be interesting to see how the 12z GFS and European shake out today to see if the Canadian is on to something or not.
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Re: One or more arctic blasts on the way?

#938 Postby shibumi » Sun Jan 11, 2009 1:38 pm

lrak wrote:Do you guys think that far S Texas willl participate? Our local NWS graphics do not anticipate this coming our way. I planted a lot of tender veggies and I sure don't want all that work to go into the ice box for a couple of day. It seems every time an arctic outbreak is forcasted a lot of the cold air slides down the eastern side of the continental divide all the way down into the Rio Grande Valley.

http://forecast.weather.gov/MapClick.ph ... &map.y=167

Thanks

Karl


Do you mean vegetation of vegetables? Most cool weather veggies aren't bothered by freezes much...like carrots, lettuce, beets, cabbage, etc. Mine were covered in snow and they loved it!
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Re: One or more arctic blasts on the way?

#939 Postby srainhoutx » Sun Jan 11, 2009 1:50 pm

Portastorm wrote:
lrak wrote:Do you guys think that far S Texas willl participate? Our local NWS graphics do not anticipate this coming our way. I planted a lot of tender veggies and I sure don't want all that work to go into the ice box for a couple of day. It seems every time an arctic outbreak is forcasted a lot of the cold air slides down the eastern side of the continental divide all the way down into the Rio Grande Valley.

http://forecast.weather.gov/MapClick.ph ... &map.y=167

Thanks

Karl


Well Karl, that is the $10,000 question that we've all been struggling with the last few days. There is conventional meteorological wisdom that says an airmass this cold, this dense will plunge south more than east (as you indicate). Then there is the computer models which for two days now have said the opposite ... however, the latest 0z Canadian model had the cold air coming straight down the Plains. Will be interesting to see how the 12z GFS and European shake out today to see if the Canadian is on to something or not.


Well the 12Z ECMWF has shifted W again and agrees with the Canadian model. Looks as if we'll have something to watch the next few days. Although 2mb temps are not that cold, at this range I never fully trust modeling. NWS has me for a high of 57 today, yet I am stuck at 46. :wink:
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Re: One or more arctic blasts on the way?

#940 Postby Ed Mahmoud » Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:27 pm

Looking at the PSU e-Wall Canadian and Euro, a bit stronger glancing blow for Texas, but still a glancing blow.

Canadian and Euro have backed off just a touch on NYC, with right about 500 DM thickness and -20 to -22ºC thickness, so the GFS of a couple of nights ago -10ºF doesn't look as likely, and even -5ºF is a stretch, but if NYC can break the 15 year streak of not reaching 0º F, that is akin to Galveston breaking its 19 year streak without a landfalling hurricane.
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