Southern Plains winter wx thread (2008-2009)

Winter Weather Discussion

Moderator: S2k Moderators

Forum rules

The posts in this forum are NOT official forecast and should not be used as such. They are just the opinion of the poster and may or may not be backed by sound meteorological data. They are NOT endorsed by any professional institution or STORM2K.

Help Support Storm2K
Message
Author
User avatar
Extremeweatherguy
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 11095
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 8:13 pm
Location: Florida

Re: Another round of frigid air to arrive in early/mid January?

#781 Postby Extremeweatherguy » Mon Jan 05, 2009 2:44 pm

Brent wrote:I'm not impressed, it's barely below 0 C here. Brutally cold in the NE yeah but not down here. A true eastern arctic outbreak would have it down to 0 C well into Florida.


Surface temperatures are closer to -5C to -10C in your area: http://www.nco.ncep.noaa.gov/pmb/nwprod ... n_288l.gif

The specifics aren't really even worth looking at right now though. With us still being over 250 hours out from the "potential" event, things are bound to change. For all we know, the actual end scenario could wind up being 10-20 degrees colder OR warmer than what the GFS is showing right now.
0 likes   

Valkhorn
Category 1
Category 1
Posts: 492
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 4:09 am
Contact:

Re: Another round of frigid air to arrive in early/mid January?

#782 Postby Valkhorn » Mon Jan 05, 2009 2:51 pm

Since the Century is only 9 years old, wouldn't it be more accurate to say the coldest in the East in 9 years?

Saying it's the coldest of the century seems to just be over hyping it.
0 likes   

Ed Mahmoud

Re: Another round of frigid air to arrive in early/mid January?

#783 Postby Ed Mahmoud » Mon Jan 05, 2009 3:05 pm

Valkhorn wrote:Since the Century is only 9 years old, wouldn't it be more accurate to say the coldest in the East in 9 years?

Saying it's the coldest of the century seems to just be over hyping it.



I was sorely tempted to say the coldest of the Millenium...
0 likes   

jinftl
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 4312
Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2004 4:47 pm
Location: fort lauderdale, fl

Re: Another round of frigid air to arrive in early/mid January?

#784 Postby jinftl » Mon Jan 05, 2009 3:27 pm

Didn't JB call for December 2008 to be on the level of December 1980 & December 1989? We all saw how that went 'bust' very fast with overall above normal temps from texas east to florida for the month. When the 5-day forecasts from NWS across the U.S. reflect temps at that level of cold....then we have a winner....but basing it on far-off and far-out model runs that trend too cold far out and then flip flop....not very convincing.

If someone was born in 2001, why not change the headline for them to the "Coldest 10 Days of Your Life!!!" or we can 'slip' and leave out that the forecast temps are in Celsius and pass them off as being in Fahrenheit...that is always a headline-grabbing technique too.
Last edited by jinftl on Mon Jan 05, 2009 3:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
0 likes   

Ed Mahmoud

Re: Another round of frigid air to arrive in early/mid January?

#785 Postby Ed Mahmoud » Mon Jan 05, 2009 3:32 pm

jinftl wrote:Didn't JB call for December 2008 to be on the level of December 1980 & December 1989? We all saw how that went 'bust' very fast with overall above normal temps from texas east to florida for the month.

If someone was born in 2001, why not change the headline for them to the "Coldest 10 Days of Your Life!!!" or we can 'slip' and leave out that the Celsius readings are actually in Fahrenheit...that is always a headline-grabbing technique too.



Not too many nine year olds read this forum...
0 likes   

User avatar
iorange55
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 2388
Joined: Thu Nov 13, 2008 9:47 pm
Location: Big D

Re: Another round of frigid air to arrive in early/mid January?

#786 Postby iorange55 » Mon Jan 05, 2009 3:34 pm

Ed Mahmoud wrote:
jinftl wrote:Didn't JB call for December 2008 to be on the level of December 1980 & December 1989? We all saw how that went 'bust' very fast with overall above normal temps from texas east to florida for the month.

If someone was born in 2001, why not change the headline for them to the "Coldest 10 Days of Your Life!!!" or we can 'slip' and leave out that the Celsius readings are actually in Fahrenheit...that is always a headline-grabbing technique too.



Not too many nine year olds read this forum...



Actually Jinftl is right, Gary Coleman reads this stuff....
0 likes   

jinftl
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 4312
Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2004 4:47 pm
Location: fort lauderdale, fl

Re: Another round of frigid air to arrive in early/mid January?

#787 Postby jinftl » Mon Jan 05, 2009 3:35 pm

One of JB's interns I would bet!

iorange55 wrote:
Ed Mahmoud wrote:
jinftl wrote:Didn't JB call for December 2008 to be on the level of December 1980 & December 1989? We all saw how that went 'bust' very fast with overall above normal temps from texas east to florida for the month.

If someone was born in 2001, why not change the headline for them to the "Coldest 10 Days of Your Life!!!" or we can 'slip' and leave out that the Celsius readings are actually in Fahrenheit...that is always a headline-grabbing technique too.



Not too many nine year olds read this forum...



Actually Jinftl is right, Gary Coleman reads this stuff....
0 likes   

shibumi
Tropical Depression
Tropical Depression
Posts: 66
Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:42 pm

Re: Another round of frigid air to arrive in early/mid January?

#788 Postby shibumi » Mon Jan 05, 2009 3:39 pm

jinftl wrote:Didn't JB call for December 2008 to be on the level of December 1980 & December 1989? We all saw how that went 'bust' very fast with overall above normal temps from texas east to florida for the month. When the 5-day forecasts from NWS across the U.S. reflect temps at that level of cold....then we have a winner....but basing it on far-off and far-out model runs that trend too cold far out and then flip flop....not very convincing.

If someone was born in 2001, why not change the headline for them to the "Coldest 10 Days of Your Life!!!" or we can 'slip' and leave out that the forecast temps are in Celsius and pass them off as being in Fahrenheit...that is always a headline-grabbing technique too.


JB did not say coldest of the century, he said coldest in a decade.

As far as the December forecast he was close to right on....he never said the SE or TX would be that cold...he mentioned the NE centered on Ohio or so....

Just to clarify....
0 likes   

Ed Mahmoud

Re: Another round of frigid air to arrive in early/mid January?

#789 Postby Ed Mahmoud » Mon Jan 05, 2009 3:41 pm

Yup, JB said coldest in a decade. I never said I was quoting his exact words.


But if I'm going to use colors and large fonts, and I can still be technically correct, I'm going to say "coldest of the century".
0 likes   

jinftl
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 4312
Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2004 4:47 pm
Location: fort lauderdale, fl

Re: Another round of frigid air to arrive in early/mid January?

#790 Postby jinftl » Mon Jan 05, 2009 3:44 pm

But Cleveland was 0.1 deg below normal for Dec 08 and Pittsburgh was 0.5 deg above normal...hardly an epic cold event. Most cities in the northeast were within a degree or so of normal....plus or minus. Hardly qualifies as a 'hit' for JB.

He was right in that weather would take place though.

shibumi wrote:
jinftl wrote:Didn't JB call for December 2008 to be on the level of December 1980 & December 1989? We all saw how that went 'bust' very fast with overall above normal temps from texas east to florida for the month. When the 5-day forecasts from NWS across the U.S. reflect temps at that level of cold....then we have a winner....but basing it on far-off and far-out model runs that trend too cold far out and then flip flop....not very convincing.

If someone was born in 2001, why not change the headline for them to the "Coldest 10 Days of Your Life!!!" or we can 'slip' and leave out that the forecast temps are in Celsius and pass them off as being in Fahrenheit...that is always a headline-grabbing technique too.


JB did not say coldest of the century, he said coldest in a decade.

As far as the December forecast he was close to right on....he never said the SE or TX would be that cold...he mentioned the NE centered on Ohio or so....

Just to clarify....
0 likes   

shibumi
Tropical Depression
Tropical Depression
Posts: 66
Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:42 pm

Re: Another round of frigid air to arrive in early/mid January?

#791 Postby shibumi » Mon Jan 05, 2009 3:47 pm

Ed Mahmoud wrote:Yup, JB said coldest in a decade. I never said I was quoting his exact words.


But if I'm going to use colors and large fonts, and I can still be technically correct, I'm going to say "coldest of the century".


hey! This is the age of over-hype for sure! maybe we can bring it on by being enthusiastic!

No worries...since I actually read JB column (for the past 3 years) I am always a bit miffed at people criticizing out of context...

people's memory of what is said, when, and in what context is always questionable....he has done well this season, especially against the horrible probability scheme our gov puts out.....

he is flamboyant, but I like that in a field where everyone else are sheep.....no one wants to stick it out there so I admire that, right or wrong....
0 likes   

shibumi
Tropical Depression
Tropical Depression
Posts: 66
Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:42 pm

Re: Another round of frigid air to arrive in early/mid January?

#792 Postby shibumi » Mon Jan 05, 2009 3:51 pm

jinftl wrote:But Cleveland was 0.1 deg below normal for Dec 08 and Pittsburgh was 0.5 deg above normal...hardly an epic cold event. Most cities in the northeast were within a degree or so of normal....plus or minus. Hardly qualifies as a 'hit' for JB.

He was right in that weather would take place though.


As I recall he talked about a two week period....not the whole month....

I just like that he talks about the weather and uses the models as support or not, instead of basing his ideas off the model runs
0 likes   

User avatar
Extremeweatherguy
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 11095
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 8:13 pm
Location: Florida

#793 Postby Extremeweatherguy » Mon Jan 05, 2009 4:21 pm

JB was correct in predicting the coldest 2 week period in the month of December since 2000.
0 likes   

jinftl
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 4312
Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2004 4:47 pm
Location: fort lauderdale, fl

Re: Another round of frigid air to arrive in early/mid January?

#794 Postby jinftl » Mon Jan 05, 2009 4:26 pm

What it comes down to as this….after a very exciting early winter, both in terms of model projections and actual weather reported across large (but not at all…i.e., most of florida), it has been a bit dull as of late for winter weather and weather enthusiasts in general…unless tracking record highs from Texas to the Northeast is an area of interest for someone. Now we are into the first week of January, approaching the climatological ‘peak of winter’ in the next few weeks, it is totally understandable that folks are anxious to see a pattern change to the level (or more extreme) than was seen 3 or 4 weeks ago.

What JB or the CPC (no denying the CPC 'called' December temps across the U.S.) or any source of forecasts that go beyond a week or 2 out may be best at doing is identify the beginning of an overall pattern change. But to draw specific temp and weather forecasts for a model run that is, say, 12 days out, has a huge margin of error with it. With hurricanes, we see the ‘cone of uncertainty’ that exists for any forecast going even just a few days out. What we don’t see, and need to factor in, is that if a forecasted arctic high pressure is 300 miles off the 12-day model forecast point even, that can lead to huge changes in who will or will not see an arctic outbreak. This is especially true as you move south in latitude through the U.S.

Just as it is generally easier to forecast the track of Cape Verde systems as they move from the Cape Verde Islands to the Caribbean (follow the ridge), these forecasts often become much more complicated as the storms approach mid-latitude locations where the interaction of complex environmental factors like ridges and troughs can lead to a wide range of solutions. The same is true on some level with arctic airmasses making their way into the Deep South. These airmasses may move with ease from Fairbanks south and east into Canada and even the Northern Plains, but as they move south, the path is not always as clearcut and successful. We saw this in December 2008 even, as the true arctic air could not make into deep into Florida or south Texas with any of its original vigor.

When things have been a bit dull, and let’s face it, there isn’t a huge window of opportunity ever for ‘true winter’ in the Deep South…and we are making our way through that window at something of a fair pace…it is much more interesting to ‘run’ with the most extreme model run, esp when it is far off in time and obviously can not be either refuted or confirmed. And without speculation, this wouldn’t be nearly as interesting a site. If we get in the 5-day window and NWS offices are clearly stating forecasts that show 0 deg in NYC and 20 in Atlanta and 40 in Miami….then we have an arctic outbreak on our hands, not an ‘all time’ outbreak, but quite possibly the coldest of the winter (but of course not every arctic outbreak means snow in the French Quarter…usually the coldest outbreaks sweep through and dry areas out). But this I have seen….we can only have so many ‘storms of the decade or century’ and ‘cold waves of the decade’ in any given season. ‘Duh’ I know….but sometimes needs to be stated.
0 likes   

User avatar
Extremeweatherguy
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 11095
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 8:13 pm
Location: Florida

Re: Another round of frigid air to arrive in early/mid January?

#795 Postby Extremeweatherguy » Mon Jan 05, 2009 5:35 pm

It's not everday that you see a run of the GFS depicting a 1064mb high pressure system in the <200 hour timeframe...

http://www.nco.ncep.noaa.gov/pmb/nwprod ... n_192l.gif

:eek:

Even if this doesn't actually play out, it still makes for an entertaining model run. 1060mb+ highs are the ones that tend to bring us arctic outbreaks we remember for several years.
0 likes   

User avatar
gatorcane
S2K Supporter
S2K Supporter
Posts: 23691
Age: 47
Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2005 3:54 pm
Location: Boca Raton, FL

Re: Another round of frigid air to arrive in early/mid January?

#796 Postby gatorcane » Mon Jan 05, 2009 5:42 pm

Extremeweatherguy wrote:It's not everday that you see a run of the GFS depicting a 1064mb high pressure system in the <200 hour timeframe...

http://www.nco.ncep.noaa.gov/pmb/nwprod ... n_192l.gif

:eek:

Even if this doesn't actually play out, it still makes for an entertaining model run. 1060mb+ highs are the ones that tend to bring us arctic outbreaks we remember for several years.


Based on the rest of the 18Z run just out, that big High dives into the plains and becomes a 1044MB surface high at 240 hours. The mid-level high moves off to the ENE then NE north of the continental US....doesn't look to be a severe arctic outbreak that will penetrate deep into the continental US just yet.
0 likes   

User avatar
Extremeweatherguy
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 11095
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 8:13 pm
Location: Florida

Re: Another round of frigid air to arrive in early/mid January?

#797 Postby Extremeweatherguy » Mon Jan 05, 2009 5:48 pm

gatorcane wrote:
Extremeweatherguy wrote:It's not everday that you see a run of the GFS depicting a 1064mb high pressure system in the <200 hour timeframe...

http://www.nco.ncep.noaa.gov/pmb/nwprod ... n_192l.gif

:eek:

Even if this doesn't actually play out, it still makes for an entertaining model run. 1060mb+ highs are the ones that tend to bring us arctic outbreaks we remember for several years.


Based on the rest of the 18Z run just out, that Big High barely makes it south of the Canadian/US border and generally heads ESE then NE into Canada....so that arctic air is not making it too far south into the continental US and definitely not into the Southern US on this run.
The run also weakens the high pretty rapidly into the 1045mb range, which seems somewhat unrealistic. Either way though, it still looks like a fairly cold scenario. Check out the sub-freezing high temperatures shown reaching the FL panhandle on January 15th...

http://www.nco.ncep.noaa.gov/pmb/nwprod ... n_240l.gif

...It certainly is not everyday that you see that happen!
Last edited by Extremeweatherguy on Mon Jan 05, 2009 5:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
0 likes   

jinftl
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 4312
Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2004 4:47 pm
Location: fort lauderdale, fl

Re: Another round of frigid air to arrive in early/mid January?

#798 Postby jinftl » Mon Jan 05, 2009 5:54 pm

To see an example of models still wavering and the challenge that can pose to forecasters even within a 144-hour timeframe, check out the latest NWS Houston Discussion:

AREA FORECAST DISCUSSION
NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE HOUSTON/GALVESTON TX
350 PM CST MON JAN 5 2009

DISCUSSION...
THE MID AND LATTER HALF OF THE WEEK LOOKS NICE WITH A RETURN TO
SLIGHTLY WARMER THAN NORMAL TEMPERATURES AND MAINLY CLEAR SKIES.
LONG RANGE MODELS DIFFER OVER THE WEEKEND WITH THE GFS NOW WET AND
WARMER AGAIN WHILE THE ECMWF IS DRY AND COLDER
. ENSEMBLES FAVOR
THE COOLER AND DRIER SOLUTION SO HAVE LEANED TOWARD THE COOLER
ECMWF.
0 likes   

Brent
S2K Supporter
S2K Supporter
Posts: 38090
Age: 36
Joined: Sun May 16, 2004 10:30 pm
Location: Tulsa Oklahoma
Contact:

Re: Another round of frigid air to arrive in early/mid January?

#799 Postby Brent » Mon Jan 05, 2009 6:02 pm

Now this looks COLD but it's always more than a week away. I'm not holding my breath.

I will say I am SICK and TIRED of this muggy 70-degree air!!!!!!!

Image
0 likes   

User avatar
southerngale
Retired Staff
Retired Staff
Posts: 27418
Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2002 1:27 am
Location: Southeast Texas (Beaumont area)

Re: Another round of frigid air to arrive in early/mid January?

#800 Postby southerngale » Mon Jan 05, 2009 6:16 pm

shibumi wrote:
jinftl wrote:But Cleveland was 0.1 deg below normal for Dec 08 and Pittsburgh was 0.5 deg above normal...hardly an epic cold event. Most cities in the northeast were within a degree or so of normal....plus or minus. Hardly qualifies as a 'hit' for JB.

He was right in that weather would take place though.


As I recall he talked about a two week period....not the whole month....

I just like that he talks about the weather and uses the models as support or not, instead of basing his ideas off the model runs


Yeah. And we got record snow here. It was amazing!

While we've had a lot of freezes, none were crazy cold... I don't think we've gotten below 27° or 28° (yet). There have been plenty of warm days as well, though. No matter how the rest of the winter plays out, we'll remember this winter by our incredible snow event... and it occurred before it was officially winter :P
0 likes   


Return to “Winter Weather”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests