Southern Plains winter wx thread (2008-2009)

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southerngale
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Re: Re:

#581 Postby southerngale » Mon Dec 15, 2008 3:21 pm

southerngale wrote:
southerngale wrote:
southerngale wrote:When should it reach SE TX, assuming it will? NWS forecasts a low of 63° tonight and a high of 76°F for tomorrow. But I guess that is what is supposed to drop our temps to a "cool" 48°F tomorrow night and a high of 61°F on Tuesday. I guess it isn't supposed to be as impressive down here as it is up there, or are they just way off, I wonder. It's pretty warm today (currently 69°F, but a predicted high of 76°F), and the forecast for the next few days is also on the warm side, considering it's the middle of December. Not very Arctic-like.

It's quite windy out there, though. We have a wind advisory.



With the colder trending temps north of here, the NWS hasn't adjusted the forecast any colder for us. In fact, they raised it a tad. Tomorrow night's low went from 48° to 49° and the high for Tuesday went from 61° to 63°

Beach weather. :P


WOOHOO COWBOYS! Image


Well, they finally lowered tomorrow's high. The low for tonight went from 49° to 47° and Tuesday's high went from 63° to 49° - how can the models be so bad that they cause forecasters to be so off? Image

And yet another huge change, the day the cold air arrives. Tonight's low went from 47° early this morning to now 38°. The high for tomorrow is unchanged at 49°.
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Re: Re:

#582 Postby southerngale » Mon Dec 15, 2008 3:27 pm

Air Force Met wrote:
southerngale wrote:

Well, they finally lowered tomorrow's high. The low for tonight went from 49° to 47° and Tuesday's high went from 63° to 49° - how can the models be so bad that they cause forecasters to be so off? Image


Because they aren't forecasting...they are model casting...and they need to be schooled in the art of forecasting arctic air...since arctic air schools them EVERY SINGLE time.

Its quite shameful and they should be embarrassed. I think the high for Tue from 4 days ago was to be in the 70's.


Welcome back, AFM! Image

I really don't like to criticize the local mets or local forecasters, but a long standing joke about a few local people (NOT Greg at KFDM... he's great!), is that they're model readers and/or nowcasters. :lol:
They can't tell you what will happen later, but they can look outside and tell you what is happening right now. lol
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#583 Postby Extremeweatherguy » Mon Dec 15, 2008 4:16 pm

Well, it is now 3pm and we have yet to get out of the teens. It is currently 17F at the airport, which is down a degree since the last hour, and all signs are that temperatures will stay in this range through sunset. This means that the NWS forecast has busted by at least 5-8 degrees today (they were calling for 25-26F but revised it down to 23F earlier this afternoon). Now it looks like the NWS is going to bust again tonight too. For some unknown reason they are only forecasting 17F for our low tonight, but considering that is our current temperature I think their forecast is way too warm. Based on the 3pm dewpoints (below zero) and the fact that we still have north winds blowing (continuing CAA), I think somewhere in the range of 10-15F is a better forecast. The NWS forecast is also looking bustable the next few days too. They are predicting that we get up to 32-33F tomorrow and 37-40F by Wednesday. I have some serious doubts that those numbers will verify. We shall see...


EDITED TO THE INCLUDE THE LATEST AFD:

AREA FORECAST DISCUSSION
NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE NORMAN OK
322 PM CST MON DEC 15 2008

.AVIATION...WINDS WILL DIP UNDER 12 KNOTS AS COLD ADVECTION
CEASES...AND WINDS SWING AROUND TO EAST/SOUTHEASTERLY WITH THE
PASSING OF A RIDGE AXIS. EXPECT CEILINGS TO LOWER OVERNIGHT AND
TUESDAY MORNING WITHIN RETURN FLOW ABOVE THE SURFACE. DISTINCT
POSSIBILITY THAT INCREASED LIFT WITHIN LOW CLOUD DECK WILL
GENERATE LIGHT ICE PELLETS OR FREEZING DRIZZLE DURING DAY TUESDAY
FROM SPS-LAW-OKC/OUN.

.DISCUSSION...LIGHT WINTRY PRECIP AND SHALLOW COLD AIR PRESENT
NUMEROUS CHALLENGES BETWEEN TONIGHT AND FRIDAY. ARCTIC COLD DOME
WILL MAINTAIN ITS GRIP...WITH 1040 MB HIGH SLIDING JUST TO OUR
NORTH. MID LEVEL FRONTOGENESIS IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE WIDESPREAD
VIRGA OVER NORTHERN OKLAHOMA...BASES AROUND 8 TO 9 THOUSAND FEET.
FORCING SHOULD WEAKEN AS SHORTWAVE RIDGE DEVELOPS ALOFT
TONIGHT...AND GIVEN THE EXTREMELY DRY LOW LEVELS WE WILL STICK WITH
NO POPS COMPARED TO HIGH CHANCE POPS FORECAST BY MAV MOS.

OUR ATTENTION WILL TURN BACK TO THE SOUTHEAST...HOWEVER...AS LOWER
LEVEL MOISTURE STARTS TO RETURN...RESPONDING TO PRESSURE FALLS OUT
WEST. MODEL QPF IS SPORADIC AND LIGHT FROM LATE NIGHT THROUGH THE
DAY ON TUESDAY...BUT THE COLD SURFACE TEMPERATURES ARE CAUSE FOR
CONCERN. MODEL SOUNDINGS INDICATE LOW OVERCAST DEVELOPING IN THE
925-850 MB LAYER. A LOW LEVEL JET WILL STRENGTHEN UP TO 40 KNOTS
DURING THE DAY...GENERATING SOME TURBULENCE IN THE CLOUD LAYER...AND
WILL LIKELY RESULT IN SOME LIGHT FREEZING RAIN OR SLEET. BEST CHANCE
APPEARS TO BE ALONG/EAST OF WICHITA FALLS TO LAWTON AND OKC AROUND
MIDDAY. IF THE EVENT IS DOMINATED BY FREEZING RAIN RATHER THAN
SLEET...THEN A SHORT FUSE ADVISORY MAY BE NEEDED FOR THE ANTICIPATED
IMPACTS ON TRAVELERS. THE OUTCOME MAY NOT BE APPARENT UNTIL THE
EVENT BEGINS. IT SHOULD BE OVER AS QUICKLY AS IT STARTS...THOUGH...
WITH THE LLJ VEERING AND CLOUD LAYER THINNING.

TUESDAY NIGHT ANOTHER FRONT WILL DROP INTO NORTHERN AND WESTERN
OKLAHOMA. IT SHOULD BE DRY EVERYWHERE INITIALLY...BUT FRONTOGENESIS
WILL AGAIN INCREASE WITHIN THE RIGHT REAR OF A SIGNIFICANT JET
STREAK. THE NAM HAS BEEN CONSISTENT IN SHOWING A STRIPE OF
PRECIPITATION ALONG AND NORTH OF THIS FRONT...ESPECIALLY ON
WEDNESDAY...SO WE MAINTAINED THE CHANCE POPS IN THAT AREA. HIGHER
ODDS FOR MORE WIDESPREAD PRECIP ARE EXPECTED WEDNESDAY NIGHT INTO
THURSDAY...WHEN A SHORTWAVE TROUGH WILL EJECT FROM THE SOUTHWEST
STATES AND INTERACT WITH A BIT DEEPER GULF AIR OVERRIDING THE COLD
DOME. WE STRONGLY SUSPECT THE GFS AND EVEN ECMWF ARE TOO QUICK TO
ERODE THE COLD AIR...AND GENERATE TOO STRONG A SURFACE LOW IN WHAT
SHOULD BE A STATICALLY STABLE AIRMASS. THE NAM IS PROBABLY
CLOSER...AS IT MAINTAINS HIGHER SURFACE PRESSURE AND MORE EASTERLY
RATHER THAN SOUTHERLY FLOW. THIS WILL KEEP THE FREEZING LINE FARTHER
SOUTH FOR A LONGER DURATION...LEADING TO ANOTHER POSSIBILITY OF
LIGHT FREEZING RAIN OR SLEET FROM WEDNESDAY NIGHT INTO THURSDAY.

ONCE THE WAVE SCOOTS BY...IT IS POSSIBLE THAT WRAPAROUND NORTHERLY
FLOW AND LOW CLOUDS WILL MAKE FRIDAY CHILLY IN SOME AREAS AS WELL. A
BRIEF RECOVERY IS THEN IN ORDER UNTIL ANOTHER STRONG COLD FRONT
ARRIVES LATER IN THE DAY ON SATURDAY. CHANGES TO THE GRIDDED
FORECAST WERE BASED PRIMARILY ON THE NAM OUT THROUGH THURSDAY. NO
CHANGES IN THE EXTENDED.


Their AFD is great and is quite detailed, but their actual forecast still makes little sense. Another front moving in on Tuesday night, yet getting warmer at the same time? Possible freezing rain/sleet band setting up over central Oklahoma tomorrow, yet only a 20% chance of precipitation forecasted? It just seems a bit odd to me.
Last edited by Extremeweatherguy on Mon Dec 15, 2008 4:39 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Arctic air overtaking the Plains and West

#584 Postby iorange55 » Mon Dec 15, 2008 4:20 pm

What is the Noaa dallas discussion hinting at here?

SIDE NOTE - CONFIDENCE IN THE MODEL SOLUTIONS (GFS...ECMWF...
CANADIAN AND THE GFS ENSEMBLES) REMAINS LOW BEYOND (DAY 4) AS
CHANGES CONTINUE TO OCCUR DAILY. CURRENTLY...THE HEMISPHERIC
PATTERN FAVORS A DEEP HUDSON BAY VORTEX AS THE SEPARATE SIBERIAN
VORTEX DRIFTS CLOSER TO THE NORTH POLE BY DAY 10. NEGATIVE
ANOMALIES FAVOR THE WESTERN U.S COAST NORTHEASTWARD ACROSS CANADA
AND INTO THE DAVIS STRAIT WHILE POSITIVE ANOMALIES FAVOR THE
SOUTHERN STATES INCLUDING TEXAS.
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Re: Arctic air overtaking the Plains and West

#585 Postby mysterymachinebl » Mon Dec 15, 2008 4:31 pm

iorange55 wrote:What is the Noaa dallas discussion hinting at here?

SIDE NOTE - CONFIDENCE IN THE MODEL SOLUTIONS (GFS...ECMWF...
CANADIAN AND THE GFS ENSEMBLES) REMAINS LOW BEYOND (DAY 4) AS
CHANGES CONTINUE TO OCCUR DAILY. CURRENTLY...THE HEMISPHERIC
PATTERN FAVORS A DEEP HUDSON BAY VORTEX AS THE SEPARATE SIBERIAN
VORTEX DRIFTS CLOSER TO THE NORTH POLE BY DAY 10. NEGATIVE
ANOMALIES FAVOR THE WESTERN U.S COAST NORTHEASTWARD ACROSS CANADA
AND INTO THE DAVIS STRAIT WHILE POSITIVE ANOMALIES FAVOR THE
SOUTHERN STATES INCLUDING TEXAS.


That's certainly interesting!
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#586 Postby southerngale » Mon Dec 15, 2008 4:41 pm

Per my posts above... tonight's NWS forecast low is now 36° and the high for tomorrow is now 44°
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Re: Arctic air overtaking the Plains and West

#587 Postby jinftl » Mon Dec 15, 2008 5:14 pm

Somewhat similar to CPC 6-10 Day Outlook....sounds like ridge off the se u.s. and a trough west coast....translating into temperature outlook graphic below...

PROGNOSTIC DISCUSSION FOR 6 TO 10 AND 8 TO 14 DAY OUTLOOKS
NWS CLIMATE PREDICTION CENTER CAMP SPRINGS, MD
300 PM EST MON DEC 15 2008

6-10 DAY OUTLOOK FOR DEC 21 - 25 2008

TODAY’S ENSEMBLE MEAN SOLUTIONS ARE IN GOOD AGREEMENT ON THE EXPECTED 500-HPA
HEIGHT PATTERN IN DEPICTING A STRONG RIDGE OVER THE ALEUTIANS, A HIGHLY
AMPLIFIED AND POSITIVELY TILTED TROUGH ACROSS THE WESTERN CONUS, AND A RIDGE
OVER THE SOUTHEAST.

Image

iorange55 wrote:What is the Noaa dallas discussion hinting at here?

SIDE NOTE - CONFIDENCE IN THE MODEL SOLUTIONS (GFS...ECMWF...
CANADIAN AND THE GFS ENSEMBLES) REMAINS LOW BEYOND (DAY 4) AS
CHANGES CONTINUE TO OCCUR DAILY. CURRENTLY...THE HEMISPHERIC
PATTERN FAVORS A DEEP HUDSON BAY VORTEX AS THE SEPARATE SIBERIAN
VORTEX DRIFTS CLOSER TO THE NORTH POLE BY DAY 10. NEGATIVE
ANOMALIES FAVOR THE WESTERN U.S COAST NORTHEASTWARD ACROSS CANADA
AND INTO THE DAVIS STRAIT WHILE POSITIVE ANOMALIES FAVOR THE
SOUTHERN STATES INCLUDING TEXAS.
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Re: Arctic air overtaking the Plains and West

#588 Postby PTrackerLA » Mon Dec 15, 2008 5:19 pm

This is insane, it's 75 degrees here right now and there's a winter weather advisory just 15 miles to my north for TONIGHT.

URGENT - WINTER WEATHER MESSAGE
NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE LAKE CHARLES LA
341 PM CST MON DEC 15 2008

...WINTER WEATHER ADVISORY IS IN EFFECT FROM MIDNIGHT TO 10 AM CST
TUESDAY...

.A WINTER WEATHER ADVISORY HAS BEEN ISSUED FOR THE POTENTIAL OF
FREEZING RAIN DEVELOPMENT OVER CENTRAL LOUISIANA AND INTERIOR
SOUTHEAST TEXAS.

LAZ027>033-TXZ180>182-201-160545-
/O.NEW.KLCH.WW.Y.0002.081216T0600Z-081216T1600Z/
VERNON-RAPIDES-AVOYELLES-BEAUREGARD-ALLEN-EVANGELINE-ST. LANDRY-
TYLER-JASPER-NEWTON-HARDIN-
INCLUDING THE CITIES OF...LEESVILLE...ALEXANDRIA...MARKSVILLE...
DERIDDER...OAKDALE...VILLE PLATTE...OPELOUSAS...WOODVILLE...
JASPER...NEWTON...LUMBERTON
341 PM CST MON DEC 15 2008

...WINTER WEATHER ADVISORY IN EFFECT FROM MIDNIGHT TONIGHT TO
10 AM CST TUESDAY...

THE NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE IN LAKE CHARLES HAS ISSUED A WINTER
WEATHER ADVISORY...WHICH IS IN EFFECT FROM MIDNIGHT TONIGHT TO
10 AM CST TUESDAY.

SHARPLY COOLER TEMPERATURES ARRIVING ACROSS CENTRAL LOUISIANA AND
INTERIOR SOUTHEAST TEXAS WILL BRING THE POTENTIAL FOR FREEZING RAIN
DEVELOPMENT LATER TONIGHT AND TUESDAY MORNING. A COLD FRONT MOVING
ACROSS THE AREA THIS AFTERNOON WILL STALL JUST TO THE EAST OF THE REGION
WITH A STRONG SOUTHERLY FLOW CONTINUING OFF THE SURFACE ABOVE THIS
COLD SHALLOW AIRMASS. THIS WILL SET THE STAGE FOR SOME VERY COOL
RAINS...WITH THE POSSIBILITY OF FREEZING RAIN DEVELOPMENT AS
TEMPERATURES APPROACH THE FREEZING MARK.

OVERALL PRECIPITATION AMOUNTS ARE EXPECTED NOT TO EXCEED 1/10TH AN
INCH. THIS HOWEVER WOULD BE MORE THAN SUFFICIENT TO CAUSE SOME
PROBLEMS ON AREA ROADWAYS...PARTICULARLY BRIDGES AND OVERPASSES.
RELATIVELY WARMER SURFACE TEMPERATURES ELSEWHERE WILL LIMIT ANY
POTENTIAL PROBLEMS.

TEMPERATURES GRADUALLY RISING THROUGH THE MORNING WILL SHIFT THE
POTENTIAL FROM FREEZING RAIN BACK TO RAIN ENDING ANY THREAT.
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#589 Postby southerngale » Mon Dec 15, 2008 5:37 pm

lol - that WWA is on my forecast at a glance page as well. 2 WWA's less than 5 days apart... crazy stuff. Of course the first one brought snow, but still.
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Re: Arctic air overtaking the Plains and West

#590 Postby iorange55 » Mon Dec 15, 2008 5:37 pm

Freezing rain right now in Dallas, I can't tell if there is sleet mixed in or not. It's not that heavy at all but heavy enough to cause problems.



Watching the news, that one little shower is causing some wrecks in downtown Dallas.
Last edited by iorange55 on Mon Dec 15, 2008 6:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Arctic air overtaking the Plains and West

#591 Postby southerngale » Mon Dec 15, 2008 5:39 pm

iorange55 wrote:Freezing rain right now in Dallas, I can't tell if there is sleet mixed in or not. It's not that heavy at all but heavy enough to cause problems.


Uh-oh. I hope people will stay off the roads. I know they have to get home after work, though. A lot of accidents happen with this kind of weather. :(
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Re: Arctic air overtaking the Plains and West

#592 Postby mysterymachinebl » Mon Dec 15, 2008 5:48 pm

southerngale wrote:
iorange55 wrote:Freezing rain right now in Dallas, I can't tell if there is sleet mixed in or not. It's not that heavy at all but heavy enough to cause problems.


Uh-oh. I hope people will stay off the roads. I know they have to get home after work, though. A lot of accidents happen with this kind of weather. :(


There was ice all over my windshield when I went out for lunch. Nothing on the roads at that time though. Hopefully, if the roads do get icy, it will wait until later tonight after everyone has gone home!
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Re: Arctic air overtaking the Plains and West

#593 Postby Texas Snowman » Mon Dec 15, 2008 6:18 pm

We had a brief bout of freezing rain in Sherman/Denison an hour or two ago and the bridges slicked up really fast. A few accidents on US 75 as it crosses over Hwy. 82. One car rolled off the highway and partially down a steep embankment. Hope they were ok.

On a side note, not trying to be a jerk, but I've never understood why people here in Texas (and other places too) don't know to slow WAY DOWN to a crawl when it is 23 degrees and their windshield wipers are running. Especially when they approach an elevated roadway or bridge.

Tx Snowman
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#594 Postby Extremeweatherguy » Mon Dec 15, 2008 7:01 pm

Joe Bastardi really called this arctic blast pretty well. About a week ago he mentioned that OKC might not get out of the teens today, and that is exactly what happened. Our high was officially 18F at Will Rogers airport.
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#595 Postby Extremeweatherguy » Mon Dec 15, 2008 7:02 pm

Now 16F in Oklahoma City (1 degree colder than our forecast low for tonight)...

Oklahoma City, Will Rogers World Airport
Lat: 35.41 Lon: -97.6 Elev: 1280
Last Update on Dec 15, 5:52 pm CST

Mostly Cloudy

16°F
(-9°C)

Humidity: 43 %
Wind Speed: N 16 MPH
Barometer: 30.48" (1034.4 mb)
Dewpoint: -3°F (-19°C)
Wind Chill: 1°F (-17°C)
Visibility: 10.00 mi.
More Local Wx: 3 Day History:
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#596 Postby Extremeweatherguy » Mon Dec 15, 2008 7:50 pm

Supposedly, today was the coldest day in OKC since February 2003 and the coldest December day in OKC since December 2000. That is pretty impressive!
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Re: Arctic air overtaking the Plains and West

#597 Postby PTPatrick » Mon Dec 15, 2008 7:56 pm

Yeah, Denver is already lower than the forecasted low....down to -6 now with a forecast low of -3...BUT that low will officially be for tomorrow, and supposedly we are supposed to get snow after 11pm which would theoretically warm things a little and maybe get use closer to the forecasted lows. Either way its just darn cold. I am not 100%sure but I dont think DIA got above 0 today...and downtown seems to have only gotten to around 4 or 5.
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#598 Postby Valkhorn » Mon Dec 15, 2008 9:00 pm

Front just passed us in Knoxville. It's in the 30s in Crossville and approaching the 20s past Nashville.

The mets here say the front will reverse course during the day tomorrow and right now I find that hard to believe.
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#599 Postby somethingfunny » Mon Dec 15, 2008 9:10 pm

I wonder how my co-workers are doing out there in the ice. It's not very bad but the road quality in Denison doesn't really inspire confidence. I wish I were out there delivering pizza right now. All the exciting weather always hits on Mondays lol.
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Re: Arctic air overtaking the Plains and West

#600 Postby Siberian Express » Mon Dec 15, 2008 10:39 pm

Texas Snowman wrote:On a side note, not trying to be a jerk, but I've never understood why people here in Texas (and other places too) don't know to slow WAY DOWN to a crawl when it is 23 degrees and their windshield wipers are running. Especially when they approach an elevated roadway or bridge.

Tx Snowman



Believe me, that type of driving isn't limited to Texans!
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