Andrew's Florida landfall downgraded to Category Four?

[Normandy]

Just making the point that where that picture was taken, Andrew did not produce its worst winds....because Elliot Key didn't experience the northern eyewall (at least from that radar image)

Also, hate to bring back the Camille debate, but THAT is what I would expect a coastline to look like after a 190 mph hurricane hits.

[Stratosphere747]

Good find on those pictures CWV..

It does illustrate the point though of Andrew's surge being what we may deem small for what was a cat 5.

There would have been nothing left except foundation if those areas had seen Katrina like surge.

[MiamiensisWx]

thats because the area where Andrew hit is not very surge prone. Parts of Biscayne Bay had 17 feet, but the ocean side probably did not even see 10.

A hurricane on Miami Beach would mainly be a wind event due to the lack of surge (the Katrina surge stayed on the beach)

I thought Elliott Key and the upper Keys/immediate mainland/island coastal areas along Florida Bay was rather prone to surge (though not as high as seen in Katrina, but around 18 to 22 feet at maximum surge). I also thought that Elliott Key received an eight to ten-foot storm surge in Andrew. Any thoughts?

I do agree, though, that the highest surge would be restricted to the immediate coastal areas. However, I'm now talking about the area where Andrew hit, NOT downtown Miami/Miami Beach.

[MWatkins]

Whomever wrote that article got confused. Andrew as upgraded to a cat 5 after the fact, based on new research showing reductions to convert flight level winds from recon to surface winds was too large for very strong hurricanes.

Also, surge wise, remember a hurricane's size has a lot to do with the surge. Hurricane Katrina was a huge storm, and impacted much more ocean than Andrew did.

No one is going to argue that the SW coast of Florida is not surge prone. However, Charlie, a similar hurricane in intensity and size, barely brought surge to Captiva Island. Andrew did deliver 16.9 feet of surge...enough to destroy Burger King headquarters in a relatively undeveloped section of Dade county.

Had Andrew been the size of Floyd or Katrina, the surge impact would have been far more devestating.

MW

[Derek Ortt]

a larger Andrew would have produced a larger surge no doubt

I wonder how much though. Jeanne, which was a massive cat 3 hurricane (small region of cat 3 winds, but very large cat 1-2 wind radii) only produced 6 feet of surge where it struck

[Jim Cantore]

Had Andrew been the size of Floyd or Katrina, the surge impact would have been far more devestating.

MW

Floyd almost was that, then it turned away.

Hate to imagine if Floyd hit Miami at 145-155mph then got into the gulf

[MGC]

Please note the trees that are still standing in the "after" landfall pictures. If this area did indeed see Cat-5 winds, and I have little doubt that Elliot Key didn't, then why are the photographs of Camille's damage viewed with much skepticism since they too show some trees standing?....MGC

[Jim Cantore]

Please note the trees that are still standing in the "after" landfall pictures. If this area did indeed see Cat-5 winds, and I have little doubt that Elliot Key didn't, then why are the photographs of Camille's damage viewed with much skepticism since they too show some trees standing?....MGC

Because those areas had a 24 foot surge and alot of the damage is credited to that.

[MGC]

There was no 24 foot surge in Andrew. So, the damage depicted above was a result of surge and wind. According to the SS Scale, which was developed because of Camille, all trees should have been blown down, which obviously is not the case in either hurricane. What I am attempting to convey is that many here insist that Camille was not a Cat-5 because in photographs there are trees standing. Well, looks like a bunch of trees survived where Andrew came ashore as a Cat-5.......MGC

[MiamiensisWx]

Since when did this topic become a Camille versus Andrew/other storm intensities debate or Camille intensity debate? MGC, that's not what this topic's about.



Also, MGC, you need to look closer at the Andrew images from Elliott Key and vicinity I posted in this thread. I never said those locations received Category Five sustained winds, but that they were likely close to the areas that did. Also, other areas of Elliott Key (such as northern tip) and the vicinity not shown in the images likely may have received sustained pockets of Category Five winds. Also, the trees are severely damaged/leaning/snapped in those images I posted if you look closer, and those still standing are SEVERELY stripped by wind.

Please, please, PLEASE don't turn this into a Camille debate.

EDIT - Sorry, didn't read the second post in some degree.

There was no 24 foot surge in Andrew. So, the damage depicted above was a result of surge and wind. According to the SS Scale, which was developed because of Camille, all trees should have been blown down, which obviously is not the case in either hurricane. What I am attempting to convey is that many here insist that Camille was not a Cat-5 because in photographs there are trees standing. Well, looks like a bunch of trees survived where Andrew came ashore as a Cat-5.......MGC

True, but it depends on the setup, wind patterns, and other factors (such as microbursts, wind pockets, and other factors). Let's not make this a Camille debate.

[Normandy]

There was no 24 foot surge in Andrew. So, the damage depicted above was a result of surge and wind. According to the SS Scale, which was developed because of Camille, all trees should have been blown down, which obviously is not the case in either hurricane. What I am attempting to convey is that many here insist that Camille was not a Cat-5 because in photographs there are trees standing. Well, looks like a bunch of trees survived where Andrew came ashore as a Cat-5.......MGC

Well I assert that Camille was not a 190 mph based on images....but even still, imo from pics along that first pic that CVW showed shows more severe wind damage than I have seen from images from Camille...

But yes, no Camille debate here.

[Stratosphere747]

Well, like many threads that start out innocently enough, this is yet another one that dissolves into a cane vs. cane thread.

The topic at hand has quickly been resolved....

[MiamiensisWx]

Well, like many threads that start out innocently enough, this is yet another one that dissolves into a cane vs. cane thread.

Wasn't me that triggered the Camille debate to refire... I just started the topic and that wasn't it's intent!

[wxman57]

a larger Andrew would have produced a larger surge no doubt

I wonder how much though. Jeanne, which was a massive cat 3 hurricane (small region of cat 3 winds, but very large cat 1-2 wind radii) only produced 6 feet of surge where it struck

The water is very deep just off the east U.S. coast, making it very hard for a hurricane to generate a large storm surge. The same hurricane that produces a 10 ft surge on the east coast of Florida could produce 2-3 times that if it hit where Katrina did or on the Mid LA coast, where the water is very shallow offshore.

[MiamiensisWx]

Ortt or other professionals, can you answer my question/point below?

I thought Elliott Key and the upper Keys/immediate mainland/island coastal areas along Florida Bay was rather prone to surge (though not as high as seen in Katrina, but around 18 to 22 feet at maximum surge). I also thought that Elliott Key received an eight to ten-foot storm surge in Andrew. Any thoughts?

I do agree, though, that the highest surge would be restricted to the immediate coastal areas. However, I'm now talking about the area where Andrew hit, NOT downtown Miami/Miami Beach.

[mike815]

my hero, it seems has not yet posted his analisis of his thoughts about the surge from andrew

[SouthFloridawx]

my hero, it seems has not yet posted his analisis of his thoughts about the surge from andrew

I appriciate the kind words mike815 but, I would appriciate if you would call the people who do deserve the compliments such as but not limited to:
American Soldiers
Firemen
Policmen

There are many many other people much more deserving of this title but, I am not one of them. However I appriciate the thoughts of kindness.

[mike815]

your just being modest american hero dont think of yourself as anything less but i will stop if it bothers u. we will keep it on the down low.

[MiamiensisWx]

Can we get back to the topic and main discussion of this thread? Thanks!

[mike815]

yes i agree sry about that so about andrew and all that surge?