Joint statement by hurricane experts

This is the general tropical discussion area. Anyone can take their shot at predicting a storms path.

Moderator: S2k Moderators

Forum rules

The posts in this forum are NOT official forecasts and should not be used as such. They are just the opinion of the poster and may or may not be backed by sound meteorological data. They are NOT endorsed by any professional institution or STORM2K. For official information, please refer to products from the National Hurricane Center and National Weather Service.

Help Support Storm2K
Message
Author
User avatar
btangy
Professional-Met
Professional-Met
Posts: 758
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2003 11:06 pm
Location: Boulder, CO
Contact:

Joint statement by hurricane experts

#1 Postby btangy » Thu Jul 27, 2006 8:08 pm

Statement on the U.S. Hurricane Problem

July 25th 2006

As the Atlantic hurricane season gets underway, the possible influence of climate change on hurricane activity is receiving renewed attention. While the debate on this issue is of considerable scientific and societal interest and concern, it should in no event detract from the main hurricane problem facing the United States: the ever-growing concentration of population and wealth in vulnerable coastal regions. These demographic trends are setting us up for rapidly increasing human and economic losses from hurricane disasters, especially in this era of heightened activity. Scores of scientists and engineers had warned of the threat to New Orleans long before climate change was seriously considered, and a Katrina-like storm or worse was (and is) inevitable even in a stable climate.

Rapidly escalating hurricane damage in recent decades owes much to government policies that serve to subsidize risk. State regulation of insurance is captive to political pressures that hold down premiums in risky coastal areas at the expense of higher premiums in less risky places. Federal flood insurance programs likewise undercharge property owners in vulnerable areas. Federal disaster policies, while providing obvious humanitarian benefits, also serve to promote risky behavior in the long run.

We are optimistic that continued research will eventually resolve much of the current controversy over the effect of climate change on hurricanes. But the more urgent problem of our lemming-like march to the sea requires immediate and sustained attention. We call upon leaders of government and industry to undertake a comprehensive evaluation of building practices, and insurance, land use, and disaster relief policies that currently serve to promote an ever-increasing vulnerability to hurricanes.

Kerry Emanuel

Richard Anthes

Judith Curry

James Elsner

Greg Holland

Phil Klotzbach

Tom Knutson

Chris Landsea

Max Mayfield

Peter Webster


Source: http://wind.mit.edu/~emanuel/Hurricane_threat.htm
Last edited by btangy on Fri Jul 28, 2006 12:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
0 likes   

User avatar
Beam
Category 1
Category 1
Posts: 292
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 2:06 pm

#2 Postby Beam » Thu Jul 27, 2006 8:15 pm

The gods have spoken, and very wise words, at that. Getting anyone important to listen'll be the hard part.
0 likes   

User avatar
Aquawind
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 6714
Age: 62
Joined: Mon Jun 16, 2003 10:41 pm
Location: Salisbury, NC
Contact:

#3 Postby Aquawind » Thu Jul 27, 2006 8:51 pm

Please provide the source.
0 likes   

User avatar
Lindaloo
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 22658
Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2003 10:06 am
Location: Pascagoula, MS

#4 Postby Lindaloo » Thu Jul 27, 2006 9:02 pm

I found this link with the same story.


http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2006/7 ... mment_form
0 likes   

Mike Doran

#5 Postby Mike Doran » Thu Jul 27, 2006 9:11 pm

I . . . beg to differ from the 'gods'. Indeed if I were king for a day all I think about is firing squads.

80 are dead in California from this weekend's heat. And this story isn't anything new, really, but what is new to me is I saw real time how the heat was related to Hurricane Dan and discharge electrics. The fact is, CO2 is a significant and direct forcing on cloud microphysics in hurricanes--via outgassing from the winds and low pressures of the storm. And these are the so called researchers who MISSED IT.

Blew it.

Blundered.

I can think of other words but they are not for the ears of children.

Our hydrology policies are utter disasters.

I have seen less biased doctors in the workers comp arena working for insurance companies.

It's all about spin and CYA to me.
0 likes   

User avatar
Aquawind
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 6714
Age: 62
Joined: Mon Jun 16, 2003 10:41 pm
Location: Salisbury, NC
Contact:

#6 Postby Aquawind » Thu Jul 27, 2006 9:20 pm

Excellent and with commentary..lol

Hmm.. Hi Mike I was talking to my wife before I hit the send button and see you posted. My comments were in response to Linda's link. Although that was a rather dramatic statement your making and to be honest I still have a hard time grasping your ideas even after asking you to to put it in simple terms..
0 likes   

Mike Doran

#7 Postby Mike Doran » Thu Jul 27, 2006 10:03 pm

Kerry Emanuel
PhD 1976, Meteorology, Massachusetts Institute of Technology
http://web.mit.edu/esi/html/peoplesub/emanuel.html

Richard Anthes
While attending the University of Wisconsin-Madison to earn his bachelor's degree, Dr. Anthes pursued his interest in the atmosphere by working as a student trainee for the U.S. Weather Bureau at the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration during the summers of 1962 through 1967. He discovered that an area of particular interest to him was researching some of nature's most devastating and costly weather phenomena: hurricanes and tropical cyclones. His masters and doctorate theses, obtained in 1967 and 1970 respectively from the University of Wisconsin-Madison, reflected this interest.
http://www.ucar.edu/pres/bio.html


Judith Curry
Ph.D., Geophysical Sciences, University of Chicago
B.S., Geography, Northern Illinois University
http://www.eas.gatech.edu/people/faculty/curry.htm

James Elsner
James Elsner, professor of geography, is an expert on hurricanes and long-range predictability. His current research is on determining the likelihood of catastrophic hurricane damage along our nation's coastline during the next 10 years. He studies the relationship of hurricanes to climate factors including the El Nino and global warming. His research is funded by the National Science Foundation.
http://www.newswise.com/articles/view/514161/

Greg Holland
Greg Holland, is almost as familiar with Colorado as with his native Australia. He completed his doctorate in atmospheric science at Colorado State University in 1983 . . . After beginning his career as a mathematician, he focused primarily on tropical meteorology and severe weather at the Bureau of Meteorology Research Centre. He also helped set up field facilities, and he established programs studying the coastal impacts of tropical cyclones.
http://www.ucar.edu/communications/staf ... lland.html

Phil Klotzbach
1999 B.S. Geography Bridgewater State College
2002 M.S., Atmospheric Science Colorado State University
http://hadley.atmos.colostate.edu/schub ... zbach.html


Tom Knutson
Thomas R. Knutson, a research meteorologist at NOAA's Geophysical Fluid Dynamics Laboratory
http://chronicle.com/free/v52/i04/04a02601.htm

Chris Landsea
August 1994 Doctoral Degree in Atmospheric Science Colorado State University Advisor, Prof. William M. Gray Dissertation: "Climatic Variability of Intense Tropical Cyclones"
May 1991 Master's Degree in Atmospheric Science Colorado State University Advisor, Prof. William M. Gray Thesis: "West African Monsoonal Rainfall and Intense Hurricane Associations"
December 1987 Bachelor's Degree in Atmospheric Sciences University of California, Los Angeles
http://www.aoml.noaa.gov/hrd/Landsea/old_bio.html


Max Mayfield
Bachelor of science degree in meteorology from the University of Oklahoma, master's degree from Florida State University.
http://www.palmbeachpost.com/storm/cont ... _1003.html

Peter Webster
Ph.D., Massachusetts Institute of Technology
B.S., The Royal Melbourne Institute of Technology
http://www.eas.gatech.edu/people/faculty/webster.htm
http://webster.eas.gatech.edu/webstercv.html
No mention of electrics in CV, despite its wieght.


Not one of these scientists are qualified to appreciate just what CO2 means to tropical storms. That is because the interaction is a very complex ELECTRICAL one involving how a surface low causes decarbonation and then that decarbonation has temperary CONDUCTIVITY meaning to the capacitive couplings between ocean and upper atmosphere that alter cloud microphysics.
0 likes   

User avatar
brunota2003
S2K Supporter
S2K Supporter
Posts: 9476
Age: 34
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2005 9:56 pm
Location: Stanton, KY...formerly Havelock, NC
Contact:

#8 Postby brunota2003 » Thu Jul 27, 2006 10:07 pm

Mike Doran wrote:Not one of these scientists are qualified to appreciate just what CO2 means to tropical storms. That is because the interaction is a very complex ELECTRICAL one involving how a surface low causes decarbonation and then that decarbonation has temperary CONDUCTIVITY meaning to the capacitive couplings between ocean and upper atmosphere that alter cloud microphysics.
and you are? I would be interested in seeing if you are...
0 likes   

Mike Doran

#9 Postby Mike Doran » Thu Jul 27, 2006 10:26 pm

I am not the making an opinion based on anything other than ideas.

That said, the ideas I am expressing are about electrics and none of the above scientists have significant education in this regard.

My experiance is not formal. I have some electrics in college with physics and circuits, but most of my experiance is from six years in the military where electrics was my job. I am not stupid--I was a National Merit Scholar in high school. I am not sure that you have to be a genius to see the connection--but you do have to know that what a capaciter is and what a static field is.

The Bates et al paper on decarbonation and Hurricane Felix in Nature 1999 is already published and good science. So is the China paper on ice formation in electrical fields. So are the numbers of papers on the capacitive couplings observed inside hurricanes. What hasn't been put together is the fact that decarbonation has CONDUCTIVITY meaning.
0 likes   

User avatar
Aquawind
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 6714
Age: 62
Joined: Mon Jun 16, 2003 10:41 pm
Location: Salisbury, NC
Contact:

#10 Postby Aquawind » Thu Jul 27, 2006 10:32 pm

Let's stick to the subject everyone Please..NOW.
0 likes   

User avatar
WeatherNole
Professional-Met
Professional-Met
Posts: 109
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 11:18 pm
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Contact:

Since you mentioned it . . . .

#11 Postby WeatherNole » Thu Jul 27, 2006 10:49 pm

FYI -

FSU did research last year on ice, the electrical effects on tropical systems, etc. - so YES - the studies continue, and they were done by meteorologists. Saying that none of those scientists are qualified to understand what you're talking about is a bit of a stretch. It's what you THINK - not know. Perhaps you should have expressed it that way.

The FSU study was based in Costa Rica, and was supposed to study eastern Pacific storms, but the Caribbean went nuts last July, so they spent all their time there instead. I don't know if their findings have been published yet, but I can tell you two of the people who were part of that study. One is a friend of mine (former broadcaster and now researcher) - Bill Cottrill, and the other is none other than T.N. Krishnamurti, of FSU SuperEnsemble (tropical model) fame.

There is a possibility that they may do it again to get more data. Perhaps they, or one of the other scientists on the mission know what a capacitor or a static field is . . . . . . perhaps.

Mike

--

**EDIT** Aquawind - my apologies. I was typing when you posted. I'll save any more comments for a separate thread.
0 likes   

User avatar
Aquawind
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 6714
Age: 62
Joined: Mon Jun 16, 2003 10:41 pm
Location: Salisbury, NC
Contact:

#12 Postby Aquawind » Thu Jul 27, 2006 10:54 pm

I was typing when you posted.



Same thing happened to me in this thread as well..
0 likes   

Mike Doran

#13 Postby Mike Doran » Thu Jul 27, 2006 11:37 pm

Waterwind,

I could not be more on topic. This statement, issued by Max Mayfield and other BushCo spokespersons is . . . well, political. And only a fool by now does not see the connection of big oil to Bush.

I heard with my own ears Jeb talking about smart FEMA--awarding victims or states if they have better building codes and so forth. And that would include, I suppose, building away from dangerous flood zones and so forth. But the fact of the matter is the message is of the 'skeptics'. Dr. Gray is . . . he signs off his forecasts with the no reasonable link of CO2 to hurricanes type language. So it's bait and switch, and right to the Jeb Bush talking points. And BTW . . . dah--it makes sense to put some strings on the givaways.

Weathernole,

I just respectfully disagree. My father was a meteorologist with the Air Force and he now is professionally in the telecommunications industry. So, yes, of course you can be a meteorologist and know what a capaciter is. But let me give you an example of what I am talking about, the vacuum of knowledge: say we are talking about how about 4 am Texas gets these rain events. Why at night like this? Mmm?

We all know about how the air cools in the afternoon from the peak of heating and then there are instabilities and condensation -- that there is a peak time of day when there are thunderstorms. BUT why in the early mornings is there flooding rain?

Enter electrics.

Couplings that are created in the Gulf of Mexico from the days thunderstorm activity are a form of STORED electrical energy. So even as the thunderstorms end, cloud microphysics are impacted. Indeed, some of the electrical fields created by thunderstorms are not nearly as organized as the couplings in the GOM may be--that they distort the fields that the couplings bring about. So it is in the conditions later of lack of lightning that the couplings begin to express cloud microphysics orders--early in the morning.

Do we see any meteorologists discussing this type of phenomenon? No. We don't--and be honest. And CERTAINLY in this political arena you are not going to see a Dr. Gray disciple talking about CO2 electrics. Not a chance in . . . well, no chance.
No, its bait and switch, and get back on talking points. Well excuse me but talking points to me are another form of LYING.
Last edited by Mike Doran on Thu Jul 27, 2006 11:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
0 likes   

User avatar
mobilebay
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 1853
Age: 51
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 1:22 am
Location: Mobile, Alabama

#14 Postby mobilebay » Thu Jul 27, 2006 11:39 pm

Mike Doran wrote:Waterwind,

I could not be more on topic. This statement, issued by Max Mayfield and other BushCo spokespersons is . . . well, political. And only a fool by now does not see the connection of big oil to Bush.

I heard with my own ears Jeb talking about smart FEMA--awarding victims or states if they have better building codes and so forth. And that would include, I suppose, building away from dangerous flood zones and so forth. But the fact of the matter is the message is of the 'skeptics'. Dr. Gray is . . . he signs off his forecasts with the no reasonable link of CO2 to hurricanes type language. So it's bait and switch, and right to the Jeb Bush talking points. And BTW . . . dah--it makes sense to put some strings on the givaways.

Weathernole,

I just respectfully disagree. My father was a meteorologist with the Air Force and he now is professionally in the telecommunications industry. So, yes, of course you can be a meteorologist and know what a capaciter is. But let me give you an example of what I am talking about, the vacuum if knowledge: say we are talking about how about 4 am Texas gets these rain events. Why at night like this? Mmm?

We all know about how the air cools in the afternoon from the peak of heating and then there are instabilities and condensation -- that there is a peak time of day when there are thunderstorms. BUT why in the early mornings is there flooding rain?

Enter electrics.

Couplings that are created in the Gulf of Mexico from the days thunderstorm activity are a form of STORED electrical energy. So even as the thunderstorms end, cloud microphysics are impacted. Indeed, some of the electrical fields created by thunderstorms are not nearly as organized as the couplings in the GOM may be--that they distort the fields that the couplings bring about. So it is in the conditions later of lack of lightning that the couplings begin to express cloud microphysics orders--early in the morning.

Do we see any meteorologists discussing this type of phenomenon? No. We don't--and be honest. And CERTAINLY in this political arena you are not going to see a Dr. Gray disciple talking about CO2 electrics. Not a chance in . . . well, no chance.
No, its bait and switch, and get back on talking points. Well excuse me but talking points to me are another form of LYING.

How long do we have put up with this? :x
0 likes   

User avatar
WeatherNole
Professional-Met
Professional-Met
Posts: 109
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 11:18 pm
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Contact:

Sigh....

#15 Postby WeatherNole » Thu Jul 27, 2006 11:52 pm

(I'll go back on my word...but just briefly.)

Ummm....no. Enter landbreeze.

That is all. I won't hijack this thread anymore. This time I REALLY mean it. :)

Mike

--
0 likes   

Mike Doran

#16 Postby Mike Doran » Fri Jul 28, 2006 12:03 am

Ummm . . . no. Enter everynight.

Landbreeze SHOULD occur EVERYNIGHT.

The flooding rains to Texas early this week went with 20k/hour strikes in the evenings.

Flooding rains are NOT EVERYNIGHT.

And this discussion is hardly hijacking the thread. The point is made that reasonable people can disagree about what causes houses to be damaged, or why more were damaged.

An ARGUMENT that more houses were damaged recently because everyone moved to the beach is a POLITICAL argument that ameleorates the core belief of the Bush administration, that "Rapidly escalating hurricane damage in recent decades owes much to government policies that serve to subsidize risk" applies to FEMA and NOT TO BIG OIL GIVAWAYS.
0 likes   

User avatar
Sean in New Orleans
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 1794
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 7:26 pm
Location: New Orleans, LA 30.0N 90.0W
Contact:

#17 Postby Sean in New Orleans » Fri Jul 28, 2006 12:18 am

A nice, concerning comment...they are speaking truth, through a bit of arrogance, and, they are allowed the right to speak their perception of truth. The truth lies between this "warning," the "government perception," and reality.
0 likes   

MWatkins
S2K Supporter
S2K Supporter
Posts: 2574
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2002 7:51 pm
Location: SE Florida
Contact:

#18 Postby MWatkins » Fri Jul 28, 2006 12:50 am

Well...regardless of other issues...I think the message from this group is a good one. Not sure who's idea it was to pull together these scientists to make this statement...but they did the right thing. They put their differences aside and addressed the issue that will...by far...make the most difference for people as the peak of the season approaches.

Although I still disagree with about 1/2 of the people who participated in that message...as far as the global warming issue is concerned...this would be like...oh...Castro and Nixon making a joint statement...or Kirk and any Klingon...or Cap'n Crunch and Frankenberry.

In any case...it's refreshing to see the divided scientific comminuty get together and address the most pressing and important issue here. Preparing for these storms.

MW
0 likes   
Updating on the twitter now: http://www.twitter.com/@watkinstrack

User avatar
Wthrman13
Professional-Met
Professional-Met
Posts: 502
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2003 12:44 pm
Location: West Lafayette, IN
Contact:

#19 Postby Wthrman13 » Fri Jul 28, 2006 12:58 am

Mike Doran wrote:Ummm . . . no. Enter everynight.

Landbreeze SHOULD occur EVERYNIGHT.

The flooding rains to Texas early this week went with 20k/hour strikes in the evenings.

Flooding rains are NOT EVERYNIGHT.

And this discussion is hardly hijacking the thread. The point is made that reasonable people can disagree about what causes houses to be damaged, or why more were damaged.

An ARGUMENT that more houses were damaged recently because everyone moved to the beach is a POLITICAL argument that ameleorates the core belief of the Bush administration, that "Rapidly escalating hurricane damage in recent decades owes much to government policies that serve to subsidize risk" applies to FEMA and NOT TO BIG OIL GIVAWAYS.


There is also a thing called the nocturnal low-level jet, and depending on circumstances, if there is sufficient elevated instability and a mechanism for lifting, such as a frontal boundary, or some other region of low-level convergence, you will get nocturnal thunderstorms. I'm sure you are aware of this phenomeonon?

Anyway, apologies also for hijacking this thread. I also think that this is a great joint statement by leaders in the tropical weather community.
0 likes   

User avatar
stormtruth
Category 2
Category 2
Posts: 651
Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2006 4:15 pm

#20 Postby stormtruth » Fri Jul 28, 2006 3:17 am

Mike Doran wrote:I . . . beg to differ from the 'gods'. Indeed if I were king for a day all I think about is firing squads.

80 are dead in California from this weekend's heat. And this story isn't anything new, really, but what is new to me is I saw real time how the heat was related to Hurricane Dan and discharge electrics. The fact is, CO2 is a significant and direct forcing on cloud microphysics in hurricanes--via outgassing from the winds and low pressures of the storm. And these are the so called researchers who MISSED IT.

Blew it.

Blundered.


Human deaths are over a 100 now. The dead cow count is approaching 20,000. Plus, a 15% drop in milk production and ruined crops. Get ready for bigger grocery expenses. And this is just the beginning. Global warming is really going to suck for all of us. :eek:
0 likes   


Return to “Talkin' Tropics”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 36 guests