What was Hurricane Ivan at landfall

[ALhurricane]

While that's certainly may be true, you have to remember that what the NHC uses to classify a hurricane is MAXIMUM sustained wind, not AVERAGE sustained wind. That maximum will very often be found only over a few sqare miles over water - never over land. The average sustained winds will generally be much lower than the maximum. So you'll never see those max sustained winds at a land observing station.

And I think another point...that you brought up in an above post...that people miss is the gust aspect. A gust just isn't some instantaneous wind. It can be...but you may also get a gust to 110 knots that lasts 30 seconds and then the winds drop back down. The overall average for the minute may be SUSTAINED at 85 knots...but a gust up to 110 knots for an extended period of time...just not long enough to make it sustained...will mess you up.

That is where a lot of the confusion comes in, I believe. People say "well I witnessed the damage firsthand...the sustained winds had to be 'X'."

Not necessarily. A prolonged GUST can mess up your world and do just as much damage as if it were sustained. A gust doesn't mean it lasts for a second and goes away...there is a ramp up and down...sometimes it is sudden and the shear force of that shock does the damage.

Agreed. One good example is the small inland town of Atmore, AL (located just north of the NW FL Panhandle). It was very hard hit by the eastern eyewall of Ivan. While the sustained winds were probably strong tropical storm force to maybe minimal hurricane, collapsing cores in the eyewall produced very intense gusts (which could have easily been Cat 2 gusts based on the damage pictures.) The University of South Alabama continues to do research on these collapsing cores and their associated wind gusts.

[Extremeweatherguy]

I want to re-word what I said earlier. This is what I really think: I think Ivan was a 120mph Cat. 3 at landfall, but that on the coast only Cat. 2 force winds were felt.

[StormScanWx]

This is only my opinion:

I think Ivan was a weak Category 4 at landfall, and I think inland communities (such as Atmore) recieved sustained winds in excess of 125 mph with gusts up to 135 mph.

[gopherfan21]

Care to back that opinion up with any facts, storm?

[Opal storm]

This is only my opinion:

I think Ivan was a weak Category 4 at landfall, and I think inland communities (such as Atmore) recieved sustained winds in excess of 125 mph with gusts up to 135 mph.

There were no reports of sustained cat 3 winds in Atmore,at least that I know of.And it wouldn't really make sense if Pensacola got cat 1 winds and Atmore got cat 3 winds considering Pensacola is closer to the coast.

Personally I think Ivan was a borderline cat 3/2 at landfall,the sustained cat 3 winds most likely stayed offshore.

[Air Force Met]

This is only my opinion:

I think Ivan was a weak Category 4 at landfall, and I think inland communities (such as Atmore) recieved sustained winds in excess of 125 mph with gusts up to 135 mph.

So...if it were a cat 4...where were the sustained 135 MPH winds and where is the data that shows that?

Thanks.

[Ivanhater]

Oh geez, I did not know I started another debate ..ixolib is right, I could care less what category Ivan was , it was one of the worst storms to hit the U.S. Many people in Pensacola and surrounding communities lost everything(including some of my family)...classify it anyway you want, still will not change what happened.

[Opal storm]

Oh geez, I did not know I started another debate ..ixolib is right, I could care less what category Ivan was , it was one of the worst storms to hit the U.S. Many people in Pensacola and surrounding communities lost everything(including some of my family)...classify it anyway you want, still will not change what happened.

I agree.It's a great way to burn time discussing our opinions on what we think,but at the end of the day the devestation is still there and the category of the storm has not changed.This can be said for all the past hurricanes we've been debating about lately.

Funny thing is,usually we have these types of discussions during the off season becuase there are no storms to talk about.

[Ivanhater]

Oh geez, I did not know I started another debate ..ixolib is right, I could care less what category Ivan was , it was one of the worst storms to hit the U.S. Many people in Pensacola and surrounding communities lost everything(including some of my family)...classify it anyway you want, still will not change what happened.

I agree.It's a great way to burn time discussing our opinions on what we think,but at the end of the day the devestation is still there and the category of the storm has not changed.This can be said for all the past hurricanes we've been debating about lately.

Funny thing is,usually we have these types of discussions during the off season becuase there are no storms to talk about.

Well there are no storms to talk about now ...

[Audrey2Katrina]

I can't speak to Ivan's landfalling category other than to cite the official report. It was one I felt confident was going to veer further east, hence among a fairly significant number that stayed to catch moderate squalls here in the N.O. area. My friends and family are frequenters of Gulf Shores tho'... and the devastation there was unbelievable. My nephew's favorite haunt, I believe it's the "Floribama?" was flattened.

I do believe it went through a longer weakening period than did some others before landfall; The dry air entrainment is clearly visible in the radar sequence; but it was both huge and intense... and that amazing trick it pulled in reforming off the east coast, and coming back across Florida to regain it's name and get a second shot at Louisiana and Texas areas... well that's just amazing.


A2K

[JBP]

All I know is that I live in West Mobile, and we're not sure if a tornado came through or what, but Ivan was the worst one at my house out of Dennis or Katrina. I lost 7 trees, one came through the roof over the kitchen, and I lost 3/4 of my shingles on a well built older home (that survived Frederic). It was by far the worst night I have experienced since Frederif when I was 19

[Jim Cantore]

An unofficial report from Orange Beach had a wind gust at 144mph, What does that have to do with my opinion, pretty much nothing, just thought I'd bring it up, key word is unofficial.

The wind damage was likely worse then it looked, but not being able to tell wind from surge damage, it makes it a little more difficult to prove anything.

Ivan was undergoing an ERC at landfall (dont believe me? look at radar) Which would explain Ivan's accelerated weakening in the final hours.

Ivan was very much like Katrina, About the same size, close to the same winds but on a smaller scale.

But unlike Katrina, I have no disputes on Ivan's intensity, Although I think he may have been as high as 125.

[MGC]

Ivan and Katrina were quite alike. Both were massive CAT-5 hurricanes at one time, both weakened as they approached land (thankfully) by dry air intrainment. Both were Cat-3 at landfall. Had Ivan made landfall where Katrina did, it would be Ivan that would have destroyed the Mississippi Gulf Coast and flooded New Orleans.......MGC

[beachbum_al]

Living in the area that Ivan hit head on with a full blunt of force I have to say that he hit the Gulf Coast at a Cat 3. Now by the time he made it to where I am directly located he was probably a Cat 2 but what I saw down in Gulf Shores and Orange Beach reminded me of what you see on the news. I know that a lot of it was storm surge but in Foley which is on HWY 59 there were houses and building that had pratically had the roofs torn off.

I will see what I can find on the net to back up what I am saying.

From the Wikipedia encyclopedia:Alabama

The city of Demopolis, over 100 miles inland in west-central Alabama, endured wind gusts estimated at 90 mph (150 km/h), while Montgomery saw wind gusts in the 60–70 mph (95–115 km/h) range at the height of the storm. [18]

The heaviest damage as Ivan made landfall on the U.S. coastline was observed in Baldwin County in Alabama, where the storm's eye (and eyewall) made landfall. High surf and wind brought extensive damage to Orange Beach near the border with Florida.

http://coastal.er.usgs.gov/hurricanes/ivan/photos/index.html
Shows some pictures of the destruction Ivan left behind in Gulf Shores and Orange Beach. Scary to see these pictures and think how far we have come!

http://www.srh.noaa.gov/mob/ivan_page/Ivan-main.htm

From the National Weather Service Office At 51 minutes after midnight on 16 September 2004, the northern eyewall of powerful Hurricane Ivan (see landfall ) moved onto land near Gulf Shores, Alabama as an upper Category 3 hurricane (Saffir-Simpson Scale). The official time of landfall was 202 AM CDT (ie. when the center of Ivan's eye crossed land). Bringing with it 130 mph surface winds and a historic storm surge, preliminary Link to Coastal Aerial Photos estimates show that the magnitude and extent of the damage and destruction over Baldwin County Alabama and Escambia and Santa Rosa counties of northwest Florida likely exceeded that of both Hurricane Frederic (September 1979) and Hurricane Opal (October 1995). Additionally, Hurricane Ivan may rival the magnitude of damage and destruction caused by the Hurricane of 1926 which ravaged the aforementioned counties east of Mobile Bay.

http://www.gulf-shores-alabama.net/hurricane-ivan.html
More pictures of the destruction from Ivan.

http://www.sky-chaser.com/iv04vid.htm
This has a great video of the actual storm damage after Ivan made landfall. I never saw this video. The Dive Shop in Gulf Shores where the water is halfway up the building literally had water to the roof during the peak of the storm.

http://www.gulf-shores-alabama.net/hurricane-ivan-photos.html
More pics of the area

I will say one thing. I really need to take some pictures of the area now since recovery is going great. It is amazing to see these pictures and realize how far we have come.

I was in Daphne, AL when Ivan hit. We left our house southeast of Fairhope and went inland a little. It was a scary night for all of us in city hall. There were times that I thought the roof was going to give when a gust would come up from Ivan. I know our winds were not as strong as they felt along the Coast but it was scary. When we arrived at our house the next day the damage there was worse than what we saw in Daphne. A lot more trees down and snapped in two. Roofs missing or parts of roofs were gone. When I went to Gulf Shores and Orange Beach five days later I notice the damage in Foley was much worse. Almost every house we went buy had a blue tarp on it. The theatre and Cici was missing the roof. I am not sure if a tornado hit those or it was the wind. As we got closer to Gulf Shores we were directed to turn down another road which eventually led us to Orange Beach. Being from this area I didn't even recognize it. There were buildings that once stood flatten like a bomb had gone off in them. The buildings that were not flatten had major damage to them. Stores had parts of the roof missing. Brunos was missing part of the front where the wind peeled it off. Actual Condos would be fine on one side and the other part you could see straight through the actual building.

I think it was a Cat 3. I think we had Cat 3 winds near Fairhope. No matter what the winds were it did major damage to Alabama and Florida.

[beachbum_al]

. My friends and family are frequenters of Gulf Shores tho'... and the devastation there was unbelievable. My nephew's favorite haunt, I believe it's the "Floribama?" was flattened.
A2K

But it is back up and running. Not the same old rustic building but it is open for business again.

[f5]

Katrina was the size of Ivan but she was a little stronger with winds topping out a 175

[Audrey2Katrina]

Ivan and Katrina were quite alike. Both were massive CAT-5 hurricanes at one time, both weakened as they approached land (thankfully) by dry air intrainment. Both were Cat-3 at landfall. Had Ivan made landfall where Katrina did, it would be Ivan that would have destroyed the Mississippi Gulf Coast and flooded New Orleans.......MGC

I agree with some of those points; but the conclusion, while not proveable (since it's impossible to prove a negative anyway).. is highly speculative. Katrina was a monstrous 5 only 150 miles from the mouth of the Mississippi, Ivan was NEVER at Cat 5, while fully in the Gulf... so yes, it would have brought in a sizeable surge, and doubtless would have done massive damage to the Miss/La coastal areas... I doubt very seriously since it had neither the intensity, nor the size of wind field, nor quite the wind speed, and had not nearly the fetch that Katrina built up, that the damage would have been as extensive--by a fairly wide margin. JMHO.

A2K

[Derek Ortt]

Ivan had a slower rise in pressure before landfall than Katrina, but the rise was more rapid (very similar to Dennis)

Ivan hitting at LA COULD have reached as a 4, since the significant rise in pressure was not until reaching the latitude of Louisiana

I can live with the cat 3 designation of Ivan (though 105KT was likely a tad too high), even though I do have questions and would have perferred 95KT, in agreement with NOAA-HRD. It's not like a few others that I am really passionate about

[Audrey2Katrina]

But it is back up and running. Not the same old rustic building but it is open for business again.

So I heard, when he returned from their annual 4th of July celebration over there. They had a ball.

A2K

[MGC]

It is really just an educated guess as to a hurricane's intensity at landfall lacking direct land based observations. I find it amusing that when a hurricane strike the USA, most all wind measuring equipment near landfall is rendered inoperative while in third world countries their equipment somehow keep working. This equipment reliability issues leave hurricane landfall wind intensity open for debate. Since the Hurricane Hunters can't deploy sondes overland, and SFMR works only over water , we are left with doppler radar. Unless the doppler radar is on a recon plane the NWS dopper is the only other option. Frequently, the strongest winds hit areas that are well removed from the radar and the radar beam is typically thousands of feet above the surface. Also, the further away the beam is from the target the less resolution the radar can provide. Greater distance equates to less accuracy of the measurement. The altitude issue requires a reduction factor to be employed, making an educated guess at the winds at the surface.....MGC