Rita at Lake Livingston, TX

[Huckster]

This site was a little slow to load for me, but has some interesting pictures. I have read that winds gusted to 117 mph there (118 mph according to this blog).

http://ritalakelivingston.blogspot.com/

[DPTX]

Thanks for sharing those pictures. My brother lives on a small private lake 40 to 50 miles east of there. He has a one acre lot and lost 8 big trees. He felt so fortunate as they all missed his house and truck. That was to have been our evacuation destination. My Dad's dialysis changed things ...one of those little quirk's of fate.
DPTX

[Stratosphere747]

Wait.....

Rita was a La. landfaller....

I've said it before, take a drive into areas of SE Texas. It gets tiresome that people continue to say Texas is "due."

[WhiteShirt]

Wait.....

Rita was a La. landfaller....

I've said it before, take a drive into areas of SE Texas. It gets tiresome that people continue to say Texas is "due."

I agree. My sister and brother-in-law's place in Anahuac, TX lost 24 very large trees-a lot of them were huge oak trees. There was a lot of damage in that area. It was by the grace of God their home wasn't damaged as bad as it could have been.

[jasons2k]

Wait.....

Rita was a La. landfaller....

I've said it before, take a drive into areas of SE Texas. It gets tiresome that people continue to say Texas is "due."

I know this is a touchy subject. No doubt SE Texas got slammed, especially Port Arthur, but it's no comparison to what happened in SW LA. I drove through both quite a bit 3 weeks after the storm. The eastern (LA) side was much worse.

At the Houston Hurricane Conference, Stacy Stewart emphasized this. He said Rita would have been much, much worse - at least 10X the cost and damage, if it had not turned and missed Houston-Galveston. Mr. Bill King, head of the evacuation task force said "we didn't dodge a bullet with Rita - we dodged a bazooka." I think these two guys are right and know what they are talking about. I hate to say it, but one of these days TX will take a direct hit from a major storm and then people will become acutely aware of just what we missed.

[Stratosphere747]

Wait.....

Rita was a La. landfaller....

I've said it before, take a drive into areas of SE Texas. It gets tiresome that people continue to say Texas is "due."

I know this is a touchy subject. No doubt SE Texas got slammed, especially Port Arthur, but it's no comparison to what happened in SW LA. I drove through both quite a bit 3 weeks after the storm. The eastern (LA) side was much worse.

At the Houston Hurricane Conference, Stacy Stewart emphasized this. He said Rita would have been much, much worse - at least 10X the cost and damage, if it had not turned and missed Houston-Galveston. Mr. Bill King, head of the evacuation task force said "we didn't dodge a bullet with Rita - we dodged a bazooka." I think these two guys are right and know what they are talking about. I hate to say it, but one of these days TX will take a direct hit from a major storm and then people will become acutely aware of just what we missed.

Jschlitz,

I respect what you are saying, but that is the inherent issue in this discussion. Hou/Gal seems to be the only target that will satisfy the morbid fantasy of destructionists. Until Hou/Gal is flattened, Texas will be "due."

I also agree with you that the damage in SW La. was above what was seen in SE Texas *especially Cameron and Holley Beach.* If not for the last few years, Rita and the impacts on both La. and Texas would be all the talk.

Regardless though, Texas was highly impacted by Rita and the landfall point is nothing more than a mere technicality.

[southerngale]

Wait.....

Rita was a La. landfaller....

I've said it before, take a drive into areas of SE Texas. It gets tiresome that people continue to say Texas is "due."

I know this is a touchy subject. No doubt SE Texas got slammed, especially Port Arthur, but it's no comparison to what happened in SW LA. I drove through both quite a bit 3 weeks after the storm. The eastern (LA) side was much worse.

At the Houston Hurricane Conference, Stacy Stewart emphasized this. He said Rita would have been much, much worse - at least 10X the cost and damage, if it had not turned and missed Houston-Galveston. Mr. Bill King, head of the evacuation task force said "we didn't dodge a bullet with Rita - we dodged a bazooka." I think these two guys are right and know what they are talking about. I hate to say it, but one of these days TX will take a direct hit from a major storm and then people will become acutely aware of just what we missed.

I agree that it would have been worse for Texas had it tracked about 10 - 20 miles more west, but I don't agree with the "much worse" in Lousiana. Have you seen Sabine Pass? Have you been to the areas of Nederland, Port Arthur and Beaumont that look the same now as the day after the storm? While the recovery continues and many places are being rebuilt or repaired and getting back to normal, there are some places (homes and businesses) that are just gone or still nothing but a pile of debris, and of course a lot of blue roofs/damaged homes and businesses still. KFDM showed Sabine Pass on the news last night and while part of it was a "feel good" story with a couple moving into their rebuilt home, ironically the first day of Hurricane Season, there were still homes that were piles of debris and others that were just an empty slab. Also, if you look at the way SW Louisiana kinda goes under SE Texas, just a few miles inland and Rita's "center" was in Texas and there was a huge area of Texas that sustained damage, ranging in intensity of course.
Regardless, most of the damage that Texas sustained goes widely unnoticed, but I don't want to argue about it. Nothing will change that, and it's ok. Those of us who lived through it and/or are living here now know what happened and see and hear the struggles every day. We don't need the attention. We rebuild, take care of ourselves (since the government has widely ignored Texas as well, giving Louisiana more funds), move along and pray another hurricane doesn't hit here.

But as for Texas being "due" - I must emphatically disagree.

[Extremeweatherguy]

One thing that is weird is the 117mph wind gust at lake livingston. I saw pictures from that area right after Rita and it looked like winds were not even close to that. There was a house on the lake that lost a dock, yet its roof,trees,windows and doors were all un-scratched; whereas 105mph wind gusts in Beaumont (closer to the center) did many times worse damages and destruction. I think the 117mph gust HAD TO have been an error!

EDIT: Just looked at the blog and those winds were definitely NOT 117mph..not even close! We got similar damage in parts of Houston with 61-66mph gusts. I would estimate that top gusts near Lake Livingston were 75-90mph.

[terstorm1012]

One thing that is weird is the 117mph wind gust at lake livingston. I saw pictures from that area right after Rita and it looked like winds were not even close to that. There was a house on the lake that lost a dock, yet its roof,trees,windows and doors were all un-scratched; whereas 105mph wind gusts in Beaumont (closer to the center) did many times worse damages and destruction. I think the 117mph gust HAD TO have been an error!

EDIT: Just looked at the blog and those winds were definitely NOT 117mph..not even close! We got similar damage in parts of Houston with 61-66mph gusts. I would estimate that top gusts near Lake Livingston were 75-90mph.

]

I believe the 117mph gust there was because the wind had a long open fetch of water to speed over. One of the pro-mets explained it some months ago.

[Extremeweatherguy]

One thing that is weird is the 117mph wind gust at lake livingston. I saw pictures from that area right after Rita and it looked like winds were not even close to that. There was a house on the lake that lost a dock, yet its roof,trees,windows and doors were all un-scratched; whereas 105mph wind gusts in Beaumont (closer to the center) did many times worse damages and destruction. I think the 117mph gust HAD TO have been an error!

EDIT: Just looked at the blog and those winds were definitely NOT 117mph..not even close! We got similar damage in parts of Houston with 61-66mph gusts. I would estimate that top gusts near Lake Livingston were 75-90mph.

]

I believe the 117mph gust there was because the wind had a long open fetch of water to speed over. One of the pro-mets explained it some months ago.

Possibly over the lake, but onshore there is no way. The damage pics from that area are not even close to that of the 105mph wind gusts I observed from Hurricane Charley. My guess is that over the lake they saw mostly 100-115mph gusts, at the shore they saw gusts to 100mph, and then everyone more than 50 yards from the shore saw 75-90mph gusts.

[hurrican19]

blah blah blah blah blah :roll::roll::roll::roll::roll: We're beating a dead horse....................................

[jasons2k]

I've always agreed that SE Texas took a bad hit - the word I used was "slammed". It's horrible, no doubt about it. But there is no doubt LA took the brunt of the storm. I just hope residents in TX don't think they survived some worst-case scenario and not evacuate for the next one, because when the real deal "big one" hits someday, it's gonna be a lot worse.

Beamont looks nothing like Cameron; Port Arthur looks nothing like Holly Beach and Johnson's Bayou. At least Port Arthur and Sabine Pass are still on the map.

[vbhoutex]

If I remember correctly that 117 mph gust was at the Lake Livingston dam and not right on the shoreline, and I thought it was on an official guage. Remember, we are talking about a point, a small area, that experienced this gust or for that matter sustained wind, not the whole lake area which is quite large. People always trend to "poo-poo" something like this because everything isn't damaged like it should be, etc. Who knows, unless someone was watching when it happend, it could have been a tornado going by too.

[Audrey2Katrina]

If I remember correctly that 117 mph gust was at the Lake Livingston dam and not right on the shoreline, and I thought it was on an official guage. Remember, we are talking about a point, a small area, that experienced this gust or for that matter sustained wind, not the whole lake area which is quite large. People always trend to "poo-poo" something like this because everything isn't damaged like it should be, etc. Who knows, unless someone was watching when it happend, it could have been a tornado going by too.

Exactly... point well made!

A2K

[southerngale]

I've always agreed that SE Texas took a bad hit - the word I used was "slammed". It's horrible, no doubt about it. But there is no doubt LA took the brunt of the storm. I just hope residents in TX don't think they survived some worst-case scenario and not evacuate for the next one, because when the real deal "big one" hits someday, it's gonna be a lot worse.

Beamont looks nothing like Cameron; Port Arthur looks nothing like Holly Beach and Johnson's Bayou. At least Port Arthur and Sabine Pass are still on the map.

Our locals have made it clear that as bad as it was, this still wasn't the "Big One" for us and it could have been worse. Greg, from KFDM, even mentions that on the Hurricane Rita DVD. Of course it's the "biggest one" in our lifetimes, but we know it could have been even worse. That is a very scary thought.

Btw, Beaumont isn't right on the coast, Cameron is. Port Arthur isn't right on the coast either, Holly Beach and Johnson's Bayou are though. So they would have taken a harsher beating with the storm surge whether they were in Texas or Louisiana. Sabine Pass is on the coast though and it's only still on the map because they are rebuilding. They were wiped out! The storm surge and winds ruined everything there. Most are still in FEMA trailers while others have been rebuilding, like the couple I mentioned above who got into their home yesterday. Perhaps go back to this thread and look at the pictures from Sabine Pass. I don't see how that could be perceived as anything but total destruction.

But like hurrican19 said, we're beating a dead horse here.

[brunota2003]

If I remember correctly that 117 mph gust was at the Lake Livingston dam and not right on the shoreline, and I thought it was on an official guage. Remember, we are talking about a point, a small area, that experienced this gust or for that matter sustained wind, not the whole lake area which is quite large. People always trend to "poo-poo" something like this because everything isn't damaged like it should be, etc. Who knows, unless someone was watching when it happend, it could have been a tornado going by too.

Yes, if I remember correctly, it was on an anemometer on the dam before trees would of been able to knock the wind down...it may of possibly been one of those quick very localized downdrafts (similar to a microburst...cant remember what they are called though...) that caused the wind gust...so please dont get your pants out-of-line just because the winds didnt knock down every tree or destroy every house there...

[Audrey2Katrina]

But like hurrican19 said, we're beating a dead horse here.

*sigh*... undoubtedly a lot of Scarlet O'Hara's around....

For those who can't make the connection...nvm!

A2K

[jasons2k]

Here are some snippets from Jeff's Rita Report. These comments are not mine, they are from a Pro-Met and echo the thoughts of Stacy Stewart of the NHC in his presentation last week:

Wind Data:
"Reconnaissance data and the NEXRAD radars out of Lake Charles and League City suggest that Rita crossed the coast with sustained winds near 115 mph. However, the majority of southwest Louisiana and extreme southeast Texas experienced category 1 wind conditions with pockets of sustained category 2 conditions across Cameron and Calcasieu Parishes. Sustained category 3 conditions were experienced in a small area where the eastern eyewall crossed the Cameron Parish coastline including the towns of Holly Beach, Cameron, and Hackberry. Both the Lake Charles and Beaumont area received sustained category 1 conditions with gusts well over 100 mph."

"The highest recorded wind gust was 133 mph with Davis wind equipment southwest of Grand Lake, LA at a height of 50 feet above the ground (Lake Charles Post Storm Report). Wind gusts of 120-135 mph were likely experienced west of HWY 27 across the western portions of Cameron Parish extending inland along Calcasieu Lake."

Surge Data:
"A storm surge of 5-8 ft was recorded in Sabine Lake impacting the Sabine Pass, Port Arthur, Bridge City, and Orange areas. The surge penetrated inland up the Sabine River past I-10 browning miles of pine forest near the river. Structures near the western side of Sabine Lake sustained extensive water damage from the storm surge and large sections of eastern and southern Port Arthur were flooded upwards of 2-4 ft. Luckily, Rita made landfall just east of Sabine Lake and the northerly flow on the west side of the hurricane helped reduce the surge into the lake. Had Rita tracked 20 miles to the west a catastrophic storm surge on the order of 18-22 ft would have heavily damaged much of Beaumont and Port Arthur and totally destroyed towns such as Sabine Pass, Bridge City, and West Orange."

LA:
"The State of Louisiana took the brunt of Rita’s storm surge and high winds with 15 parishes being declared federal disaster areas. Damage was extensive and widespread where the right front quadrant crossed the coast. The entire small towns of Peveto Beach and Holly Beach were completely destroyed by the storm surge with nearly 80% of Cameron and 70% of Creole, LA destroyed."

Lake Livingston:
"In the early morning hours of September 24th, as Rita made landfall across east Texas, hurricane force winds were felt across Lake Livingston and tropical storm force winds across Lake Conroe. The north to south alignment of the lakes allowed for north and north-northeast winds on the west side of the circulation to extend down the length of the lakes. With a wind gust to 117 mph at Lake Livingston and sustained 60-75 mph winds for many hours, large wave action and minor storm surges (1.5ft) were created on the south and southwest shores of the lake. Wave action was large enough to damage the 30 inch diameter rip rap stone along the dam’s embankment resulting in significant amounts of erosion and scour along the north side of the Lake Livingston dam (Figure 15). The integrity of the dam came into question by mid morning and the Trinity River Authority released 79,200 cfs into the Trinity River Saturday and Sunday to lower the lake water level. A complete evaluation of the dam was conducted the week following Rita and determined the dam remained structurally sound. 20 million dollars in damage occurred to the Lake Livingston dam as a result of hurricane Rita."

Final Comment:
"Had Rita tracked 100 miles to the west the devastation along the upper Texas coast, including Galveston and the many communities along the shores of Galveston Bay, would have been tremendous. The Houston/Galveston area should be fortunate that the hurricane turned hard enough to spare the area the impacts of a major hurricane landfall. Rita’s storm surge would have penetrated up to 20 miles inland across Galveston and Brazoria counties inundating most of the highly populated areas east of I-45. The western end of Galveston Island and the Bolivar Peninsula currently experiencing rapid growth would have been reduced to nothing more than concrete slabs and wooden pilings in a scene not at all different from Holly Beach or Gulfport. As coastal populations continue to increase multi billion dollar hurricane disasters will occur more frequently. The luck of the upper Texas coast since the landfall of hurricane Alicia in 1983 will end in the future. At some point in time this area will suffer what Louisiana and Mississippi suffered from hurricanes Katrina and Rita, and the area must be prepared when the time comes."

[Audrey2Katrina]

Scary thought... may it be a looooong way off

A2K

[Extremeweatherguy]

Like I said, I agree that a gust to 117mph could have occurred right at the dam, but as you can see from Jeff's report the sustained winds were only 60-75mph in that area, so they barely saw hurricane force winds (if even). The gusts were probably much higher at lake shore too. Also, as was said in another comment, this could have very well been an isolated tornado or sharp downburst/microburst.