While we're at it, What do you think Rita's LF winds were?

[Jim Cantore]

There are places where strength doesnt matter, mainly New Orleans, Where a slow moving depression could wind up a catastrophe , Actually, havent we seen weak storms flood major cities before? We sure have, think back 5 years.

And where did the discussion of wind damage become relavent? Rita was a surge storm, 80% of her damage was likely surge related. Looking at the big picture, her winds didnt matter much did they, lower winds wouldnt have saved Cameron or Holly Beach.

I don't think 80% is correct. Yes...the surge destroyed everything in its path, but there was a ton of damage not surge related. What you see in Sabine Pass, Holly Beach, Johnson's Bayou and Cameron is surge. All of the other damage in SE Texas, East Texas and in SW Louisiana is from wind and it really did matter a lot to those who lost homes and businesses, as well as those who "only" sustained damages. Everything you see in Texas aside from Sabine Pass is from WIND.

65%

[Pearl River]

Derek wrote

Pearl River, it is rediculous to say that cat 2 winds cannot devastate an area. That is upper F-1 tornado damage, and we see all the time that an upper F-1 nearly destroys many structures. IN most cat 2 hurricanes, the cat 2 winds do not affect many people

No, it's not a ridiculous statement. If you you have read what I said, it depends on the structural integrity of a building. If the structures are shabbily put together, yes a cat 2 will level them.

[Normandy]

F1 damage (winds of 73-112 mph, Cat 1-2 hurricane)









This is f2 Tornado damage (Fort Worth tornado, winds of 113 mph+, mahor hurricane winds)





http://www.dallassky.com/fwtornado.htm



Again, I dont necesarilly think all those structures shown were leveled by the F1 tornados....but the f2 did more severe damage...the Fort Worth pics show some pretty bad damage to skyscrapers, and gives a taste of what a Cat3 would do to a metropolitan area. So in my mind, a cat2 wont level EVERYTHING in its path, only things near the coast because of surge. JMO.

[Derek Ortt]

those F2 tornado damage pics look just like Ft Lauderdale after Wilma, which is consistent since the winds in the hgih rises are much higher than at the surface.

Cat 1-2 winds destroyed more than 5,000 structures in Broward and damaged thousands of others, despite the codes being among the highest in the USA (close to the VI codes). A 3 here will be horrific and I likely wont be around for the aftermath

[greeng13]

Derek...what exaclty are the VI codes? Is that the new "Dade County" codes??? or something different?

[Extremeweatherguy]

And then imagine if we had a Cat. 5 DIRECT hit on a major city!







^^F3 tornado damage^^

[Derek Ortt]

VI=Virgin Islands

[greeng13]

OK...it seemed like the obvious answer....never heard of a building code there though.

Thanks.

[Derek Ortt]

after Marilyn destroyed St Thomas, the codes were dramatically upgraded so that they are the best in the entire USA

[m_ru]

I really don't understand why people are comparing tornado wind damage to hurricane wind damage. Even if the wind speeds are the same, they are completely different kinds of weather phenomenon and strike buildings and trees in a completely different way.

[gatorcane]

those F2 tornado damage pics look just like Ft Lauderdale after Wilma, which is consistent since the winds in the hgih rises are much higher than at the surface.

Cat 1-2 winds destroyed more than 5,000 structures in Broward and damaged thousands of others, despite the codes being among the highest in the USA (close to the VI codes). A 3 here will be horrific and I likely wont be around for the aftermath

A CAT 3 + in Miami-Dade/Broward/Palm Beach would be a disaster...I won't be around for the aftermath either - I'll move up north.

[Ixolib]

I really don't understand why people are comparing tornado wind damage to hurricane wind damage. Even if the wind speeds are the same, they are completely different kinds of weather phenomenon and strike buildings and trees in a completely different way.

Well said... I have never been through a tornado - at least not the "plains style" - but it seems to me a tornado's wind effect is greatly different than the straight-line winds from a hurricane. Perhaps even apples and oranges...

One thing that seems to be associated more with tornados than with hurricanes is the extreme, sudden, and localized changes in air pressure, which in-turn, causes building to explode or implode. In a hurricane, the pressure variations are spread over a much larger area than in a tornado, thereby negating (to some degree) the pressure issue in destroying a building. No doubt, there is much more to a tornado than its wind...

[Normandy]

I really don't understand why people are comparing tornado wind damage to hurricane wind damage. Even if the wind speeds are the same, they are completely different kinds of weather phenomenon and strike buildings and trees in a completely different way.

Well said... I have never been through a tornado - at least not the "plains style" - but it seems to me a tornado's wind effect is greatly different than the straight-line winds from a hurricane. Perhaps even apples and oranges...

One thing that seems to be associated more with tornados than with hurricanes is the extreme, sudden, and localized changes in air pressure, which in-turn, causes building to explode or implode. In a hurricane, the pressure variations are spread over a much larger area than in a tornado, thereby negating (to some degree) the pressure issue in destroying a building. No doubt, there is much more to a tornado than its wind...

That is true, but while the tornado has other destructive features other than wind, the hurricane blasts you with wind for a longer time period.

[Ixolib]

I really don't understand why people are comparing tornado wind damage to hurricane wind damage. Even if the wind speeds are the same, they are completely different kinds of weather phenomenon and strike buildings and trees in a completely different way.

Well said... I have never been through a tornado - at least not the "plains style" - but it seems to me a tornado's wind effect is greatly different than the straight-line winds from a hurricane. Perhaps even apples and oranges...

One thing that seems to be associated more with tornadoes than with hurricanes is the extreme, sudden, and localized changes in air pressure, which in-turn, causes building to explode or implode. In a hurricane, the pressure variations are spread over a much larger area than in a tornado, thereby negating (to some degree) the pressure issue in destroying a building. No doubt, there is much more to a tornado than its wind...

That is true, but while the tornado has other destructive features other than wind, the hurricane blasts you with wind for a longer time period.

As Pearl River pointed out in a post above...

"it depends on the structural integrity of a building. If the structures are shabbily put together, yes a cat 2 will level them."

...But a solid structure will - in the overwhelmingly number of cases - remain intact in CAT 2 straight-line hurricane winds - even if they are present for "a longer time period". Those same winds, however, with the other nuances associated with tornadoes, will have a completely different impact if they are from a tornado.

There are hundreds of thousands of examples of homes (non-manufactured, of course) and other structures that have easily survived a CAT 2 "hurricane". Tornadoes are simply a different breed and, I believe, cannot reasonably be compared to the potential effects of a hurricane.

It's kinda like this: If a Mack truck traveling at 60 miles per hour hits a pine tree, the pine tree will be severely damaged or knocked over. However, if a Ford Pinto traveling at the same speed hits the same tree, it is likely the tree will continue to stand strong with minimal damage. Comparing the force of Mack truck and a Pinto doesn't make sense. And, IMO, neither does comparing a tornado and a hurricane.

[Extremeweatherguy]

that F3 tornado damage looks a lot like what was seen after hurricane Andrew though, so tornado damage can help at least some in determining the damage of a hurricane. Overall though, I agree that they are two different types of storm. A hurricane has a gradual wind increase and gusts are usually never more than 50mph stronger than the sustained winds. With a tornado, however, it is all pretty much one extreme burst (similar to a gust, but spinning) that hits you head on. There is no real gradual increase in winds over an extended period of time. They have found that sudden gusts of wind do more damage than a gradual wind increase. For example, a sudden 20 second microburst wind gust to 75mph will likely do more damage than a 65mph sustained wind with gusts to 80mph...therefore a 100mph tornado would likely do more damage than a 100mph hurricane (unless the hurricane lasted for an insane amount of time), but the damage would still be similar.

[f5]

for now this is the old scale the new EF scale goes into effect next year