Critics say new levees might fail

[HurricaneJoe22]

Critics say new levees might fail

New Orleans soil isn't the right type for task, they say

By John Schwartz
The New York Times
Posted February 19 2006

BAYOU BIENVENUE, La. · It will take a staggering 4 million cubic yards of soil to repair the levee system around New Orleans, and almost half of it will go to a battered 12-mile stretch along the navigational canal east of the city known as the Mississippi River Gulf Outlet.

Yet critics of the Army Corps of Engineers say the new construction is likely to fail again. The sandy local dirt being used for levee construction is too weak, they say, and not enough thick clay is being imported by barge from Mississippi to strengthen it.

Getting enough of the kind of soil that can stand up to future hurricanes is one of the greatest challenges of the levee effort, as the Corps of Engineers and its contractors race to restore the storm protection system. By June 1, the start of this year's hurricane season, they want the levees to be at least as strong as they were before Hurricane Katrina. The St. Bernard project, which began last fall, is among the biggest challenges in rebuilding the 350-mile levee system around New Orleans; the Corps of Engineers estimates that this stretch of levee alone will require 1.65 million cubic yards of soil, most of it excavated from local pits.

To build the new levees to a 20-foot height, much of them in inaccessible areas, the corps has had to search for soil with enough clay content to bind the sandy blend that is here. To strengthen the local soil, the Army Corps has been bringing in clay by barge from Mississippi.

Officials acknowledge that getting enough of what they call "borrow" material has been difficult, but said the search has been going well and the levees will be strong.

"I'm very confident in what we're building," said Col. Lewis Setliff III, commander of the Task Force Guardian, the unit that is responsible for restoring the damaged flood protection system. "It's certainly better than what was there before."

But Robert G. Bea, a professor of engineering at the University of California, Berkeley, and a leader of the group of independent investigators that is financed by the National Science Foundation, said the earth he had seen on the site "is no better than it was before."

Army Corps officials said they disagreed with his assessment.

Kevin Wagner, the project manager for the Engineers, said, "We're sampling soil every day" to ensure that they are getting a good blend of clay and other soils that are appropriate for levee building. "We've done more testing on this job than any levee construction we've ever done," he said.

[Yarrah]

Only levees won't help. The US need to built some other forms of flood protection, like cutting Lake Ponchartrain off from the sea and building a massive movable sea-barrier in the Mississipi. Only then will NO be able to keep its feet dry

[Ixolib]

Only levees won't help. The US need to built some other forms of flood protection, like cutting Lake Ponchartrain off from the sea and building a massive movable sea-barrier in the Mississipi. Only then will NO be able to keep its feet dry

One of our professional mets made a pretty bold statement about rebuilding N.O., and his point may have some validity: http://www.storm2k.org/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?p=1223960#1223960

The bottom line is that the city is B-E-L-O-W sea level. Under that condition, it seems completely impossible that anything can be done to keep the exact (or worse) scenario from happening again - no matter how many dollars the feds throw at the problem...

[ROCK]

Only levees won't help. The US need to built some other forms of flood protection, like cutting Lake Ponchartrain off from the sea and building a massive movable sea-barrier in the Mississipi. Only then will NO be able to keep its feet dry

The US?? what about LA?

[Yarrah]

The bottom line is that the city is B-E-L-O-W sea level. Under that condition, it seems completely impossible that anything can be done to keep the exact (or worse) scenario from happening again - no matter how many dollars the feds throw at the problem...

About 60% of my country lies below sea level and about 7 million people live there. So with the right flood protection systems it is absolutely possible to live below sea level.

The US?? what about LA?

I forgot that LA needs to do these things and not Washington

[Matt-hurricanewatcher]

There is no levee you could build that would not be made worstless just a short time after it was built. the ground is sinking...new orleans was nice while it lasted but some things have to come to a end. I'm sorry but if it is rebuilt we will hear about thousands of people dieing from the next hurricane.

[Pearl River]

ROCK wrote

Yarrah wrote:
Only levees won't help. The US need to built some other forms of flood protection, like cutting Lake Ponchartrain off from the sea and building a massive movable sea-barrier in the Mississipi. Only then will NO be able to keep its feet dry



The US?? what about LA?

Since the Army Corps of Engineers is responsible for the levee systems in this country, that is why they are responsible for the levees in LA. The floods along the Mississippi in the midwest in '93 the corps was responsible and the federal government spent the money there.

Why is it up to LA to pay for this when the U.S pays for all other natural disasters in this country? I'll say it again for the hundreth time. If the U.S government would give LA the offshore royalties that other oil producing states receive, approx 2-3 billion dollars a year, the feds would not have to spend a dime. This would go to coastal restoration and levee upgrades.
It's not that N.O. is sinking, it's the rest of the area is suffering land loss.

The infrastructure is not there to move over a million people. Baton Rouge is having enough problems handeling the influx of people they have had. You are talking about Plaquemines, St Bernard, Orleans and Jefferson Parishes that lie along the Gulf and then St Charles Parish and the southern portions of St Tammany and Tangipahoa Parishes that border Lake Pontchartrain.

There was talk about 20 years ago to put a floodgate at the Rigolets to keep storm surge from coming into Lake Pontchartrain. The corps of engineers did not want to go along with the plan. I'm sorry, people say you cannot compare, but if San Francisco or L.A. were to have major earthquakes, you wouldn't have people clammoring not to rebuild.

[Jim Cantore]

I remember in school in January of 2005 we read a thing on the levees and I said that if a large major or slow moving hurricane hit or passed close to New Orleans that they would fail and everyone thought I was nuts

I would've been alot happier if I was wrong because I told you so is not a feather in my cap for this

of course they'll fail again, they're rebuilding them to take a cat 3 and they failed in cat 2-3 conditions, eventually a cat 4-5 will smash that area

[Pearl River]

Hurricane Floyd wrote

of course they'll fail again, they're rebuilding them to take a cat 3 and they failed in cat 2-3 conditions, eventually a cat 4-5 will smash that area

They are rebuilding them to cat 3 levels for this coming hurricane season based on Congressional Authorization. They want to build them to cat 5 levels, but the government does not want to spend the money. It makes no sense. Fund the cat 5 levee now or continue to spend money on rebuilding.

This is based on the Federal Flood Control Act of 1965:

Congress first authorized the Lake Pontchartrain and Vicinity, Louisiana Hurricane Protection Project in the Flood Control Act of 1965. The project was to construct a series of control structures, concrete floodwalls, and levees to provide hurricane protection to areas around Lake Pontchartrain. The project, when designed, was expected to take about 13 years to complete and cost about $85 million. Although federally authorized, it was a joint federal, state, and local effort.

The original project designs were developed based on the equivalent of what is now called a fast-moving Category 3 hurricane that might strike the coastal Louisiana region once in 200-300 years.

[ROCK]

ROCK wrote

Yarrah wrote:
Only levees won't help. The US need to built some other forms of flood protection, like cutting Lake Ponchartrain off from the sea and building a massive movable sea-barrier in the Mississipi. Only then will NO be able to keep its feet dry



The US?? what about LA?

Since the Army Corps of Engineers is responsible for the levee systems in this country, that is why they are responsible for the levees in LA. The floods along the Mississippi in the midwest in '93 the corps was responsible and the federal government spent the money there.

Why is it up to LA to pay for this when the U.S pays for all other natural disasters in this country? I'll say it again for the hundreth time. If the U.S government would give LA the offshore royalties that other oil producing states receive, approx 2-3 billion dollars a year, the feds would not have to spend a dime. This would go to coastal restoration and levee upgrades.
It's not that N.O. is sinking, it's the rest of the area is suffering land loss.

The infrastructure is not there to move over a million people. Baton Rouge is having enough problems handeling the influx of people they have had. You are talking about Plaquemines, St Bernard, Orleans and Jefferson Parishes that lie along the Gulf and then St Charles Parish and the southern portions of St Tammany and Tangipahoa Parishes that border Lake Pontchartrain.

There was talk about 20 years ago to put a floodgate at the Rigolets to keep storm surge from coming into Lake Pontchartrain. The corps of engineers did not want to go along with the plan. I'm sorry, people say you cannot compare, but if San Francisco or L.A. were to have major earthquakes, you wouldn't have people clammoring not to rebuild.

Again I ask where does the casino money go? Welfare reform? The point is that LA/NO should be responsible for their protection not the govt. You want to live in an area that can flood with the weakest of hurricanes then you guys pay for it. Raise taxes, implement a levee tax, raise the city, move it inland, whatever it takes just take some responsibility for your city.

May I suggest you read this link on the seawall built in 1902.

http://www.1900storm.com/rebuilding/index.lasso

[brunota2003]

I hate to think that everyone's tax money is going to rebuild a city that should not of been built to begin with...I'm crazy, ok, but I would not live in a bowl near the coast in a hurricane prone area that floods super easy...its just me...but I think we could find something better to spend the taxpayers money on...like more research flights for hurricanes, or try to make the models better, than on a city that is sinking and will be wiped off the face of the earth when a Cat 4 or 5 rolls thru...

[ROCK]

I hate to think that everyone's tax money is going to rebuild a city that should not of been built to begin with...I'm crazy, ok, but I would not live in a bowl near the coast in a hurricane prone area that floods super easy...its just me...but I think we could find something better to spend the taxpayers money on...like more research flights for hurricanes, or try to make the models better, than on a city that is sinking and will be wiped off the face of the earth when a Cat 4 or 5 rolls thru...

Well said....

[Pearl River]

ROCK wrote

Again I ask where does the casino money go? Welfare reform? The point is that LA/NO should be responsible for their protection not the govt. You want to live in an area that can flood with the weakest of hurricanes then you guys pay for it. Raise taxes, implement a levee tax, raise the city, move it inland, whatever it takes just take some responsibility for your city.

May I suggest you read this link on the seawall built in 1902.

http://www.1900storm.com/rebuilding/index.lasso

The Flood Control Act of 1965 authorized by Congress to build levees to today's cat 3 standards. That's why the money comes from the federal government.

First of all, LA is one of the highest taxed states in the country. For a statewide tax there needs to be a state constitutional amendment and those in northern LA are not going to vote for a tax to protect N.O.

The levee boards use monies to purchase property for the ACOE to extend levee protection.

According to estimates, Louisiana will have 786 (m) million dollars less in the state general fund for the fiscal year that begins July first than was expected before the hurricanes. The casino revenues go towards teachers salaries, housing prisoners, highway funds so forth and so on. Just fyi, MS has 30 non-Indian casinos (pre-Katrina) compared to LA's 15 non-Indian casino's (pre-K).

Raise the city? I think thats an excellent idea, just like Galveston did after 1900. Move N.O.? Again, the infrastructure is not there to do that. You would have to move more than just N.O. Remember everything south of I-10 here is basically marshland as it is. Baton Rouge could not handle the influx of people after the storm. St Tammany Parish has an extra 80,000 people living here. It's extremely hard to get around here. Jefferson and St Charles Parishes have taken in several thousand too.

Katrina was not the weakest of hurricanes. I take offense to that. I don't care if you have a co-worker that lived in Metairie and didn't suffer any damage, more people did than didn't. My father and several friends and family members lost everything they own and they don't live in N.O. It could be said the same about Houston flooding in the weakest of tropical storms, Allison.

[SouthFloridawx]

I seriously think they need to do something quick because if they don't hurricane season 2006 will be upon us in 3 months 8 days and 10 hours. I seriously doubt that it is enough time to get something done before the season starts. I understand that it means a lot to the people who lived there and want to stay there cause it is thier home. I guess for the remainder of this year they will just have to have a timely warning system to get the people out as quick as possible when a threat may arise. Until then they need to come up with something quick. Is it really worth it? If they got rid of the city then the coastline would not dissapear as quickly.

[Ixolib]

The bottom line is that the city is B-E-L-O-W sea level. Under that condition, it seems completely impossible that anything can be done to keep the exact (or worse) scenario from happening again - no matter how many dollars the feds throw at the problem...

About 60% of my country lies below sea level and about 7 million people live there. So with the right flood protection systems it is absolutely possible to live below sea level.

I have seen your systems, and they are in fact awesome. I lived in The Netherlands from 1980 until 1984, living in Volkel near Eindhoven. Visited Utrecht many tims. By the way, beautiful country - and I mean BEAUTIFUL!! I miss it... It's amazing how one can drive for miles down the highway and not see one single piece of paper or any other kind of trash anywhere. For many reasons, you are very fortunate to live where you do!!

In terms of a Dutch-type system here - especially at/near the mouth of the Mississippi - it just doesn't seem plausible, much less fundable. To be effective (and that's probably a stretch), I believe your type of system would have to start at the northern end of Lake Borgne, run southwestward to SW Pass, then northwestward to about Vermilion Bay, then northward to about I-10 - or even beyond. And this doesn't even take into account the issues with the Pontchartrain Basin. Then, by the time funds became available (if ever), the southeastern corner of Louisiana would have sunk another few feet into the GOM, necessatating a return to the chalk board. And so the story would go...

And finally, because The Netherlands is smaller than many of our states, it makes complete sense for Den Haag to approve investment in such a monumental project as it brings safety to a large part of the country - not just one area as would be the case with SE LA.

[Yarrah]

In terms of a Dutch-type system here - especially at/near the mouth of the Mississippi - it just doesn't seem plausible, much less fundable. To be effective (and that's probably a stretch), I believe your type of system would have to start at the northern end of Lake Borgne, run southwestward to SW Pass, then northwestward to about Vermilion Bay, then northward to about I-10 - or even beyond. And this doesn't even take into account the issues with the Pontchartrain Basin. Then, by the time funds became available (if ever), the southeastern corner of Louisiana would have sunk another few feet into the GOM, necessatating a return to the chalk board. And so the story would go...

And finally, because The Netherlands is smaller than many of our states, it makes complete sense for Den Haag to approve investment in such a monumental project as it brings safety to a large part of the country - not just one area as would be the case with SE LA.

I'm starting to believe that a series of flood protection systems to protect NO would not be a very good idea. It's true that it would cost billions of dollars and I don't know if people will think it's worth the money.

It would also take many, many years to complete (the Dutch delta-works took 40 years to complete, Zuiderzee-works 15 years) and with the current trend of active hurricane seasons, NO might be hit a few more times by a major hurricane before the systems are even finished.

One more thing, the Dutch system is built to withstand storms that are comparable in wind and stormsurge to a category 3 hurricane. I don't know if it possible to built a system that would be able to withstand a category 5 hurricane

[Pearl River]

brunota2003 wrote

I hate to think that everyone's tax money is going to rebuild a city that should not of been built to begin with...I'm crazy, ok, but I would not live in a bowl near the coast in a hurricane prone area that floods super easy...its just me...but I think we could find something better to spend the taxpayers money on...like more research flights for hurricanes, or try to make the models better, than on a city that is sinking and will be wiped off the face of the earth when a Cat 4 or 5 rolls thru...

Even the people that live here are footing the taxes for this too. Everyone keeps talking about the city. There's more area than that to worry about. People obviously have no anything about SE LA, other than N.O. Let's not rebuild the coast of MS. What about Miami? San Francisco? L.A.? Houston? Those areas are just as disaster prone as New Orleans. If it wasn't for the floodwalls breaching, this conversation would not be taking place.

Since the government controls the ACOE and the ACOE controls the levee's and the Congress under the Flood Control Act of 1965 says to build the levee's to today's cat 3 level and it takes an act of Congress to raise those levels.

New Orleans is not receiving more than anyone else and as a matter of fact, the MS coast is receiving more funds.

Since all the experts here are saying no cat 4 or cat 5 can hit the NGOM, then why worry about it wiping the city off the face of the planet. Rebuild the levees stronger, close the MS River-Gulf Outlet, build a flood gate across the Rigolets to keep surge out of Lake Pontchartrain. That will take care of having to rebuild the city in the future. We have the greatest coastal land loss problem in North America. Fix this, and all else would be taken care of.

[SouthFloridawx]

Let's not rebuild the coast of MS. What about Miami? San Francisco? L.A.? Houston? Those areas are just as disaster prone as New Orleans. If it wasn't for the floodwalls breaching, this conversation would not be taking place.

I am not understanding ... I understand those areas are prone to disasters but, a disaster has occured there in NO and it is going to cost possbily 100's of billions to fix it and that might not work. It is my understanding in an article I read that because of the leaves in and around NO that is the reason why the LA is loosing so much land every year. Everyone is thinking just purely on emotion and granted I do not live in the area... I live in SE florida but, I see there is a problem there in NO and everyone said it could and would happen someday and it wasn't even the worst possible scenario.

[ROCK]

brunota2003 wrote

I hate to think that everyone's tax money is going to rebuild a city that should not of been built to begin with...I'm crazy, ok, but I would not live in a bowl near the coast in a hurricane prone area that floods super easy...its just me...but I think we could find something better to spend the taxpayers money on...like more research flights for hurricanes, or try to make the models better, than on a city that is sinking and will be wiped off the face of the earth when a Cat 4 or 5 rolls thru...

Even the people that live here are footing the taxes for this too. Everyone keeps talking about the city. There's more area than that to worry about. People obviously have no anything about SE LA, other than N.O. Let's not rebuild the coast of MS. What about Miami? San Francisco? L.A.? Houston? Those areas are just as disaster prone as New Orleans. If it wasn't for the floodwalls breaching, this conversation would not be taking place.

Since the government controls the ACOE and the ACOE controls the levee's and the Congress under the Flood Control Act of 1965 says to build the levee's to today's cat 3 level and it takes an act of Congress to raise those levels.

New Orleans is not receiving more than anyone else and as a matter of fact, the MS coast is receiving more funds.

Since all the experts here are saying no cat 4 or cat 5 can hit the NGOM, then why worry about it wiping the city off the face of the planet. Rebuild the levees stronger, close the MS River-Gulf Outlet, build a flood gate across the Rigolets to keep surge out of Lake Pontchartrain. That will take care of having to rebuild the city in the future. We have the greatest coastal land loss problem in North America. Fix this, and all else would be taken care of.

Wasn't referring to Katrina as the weakest of hurricanes. A high end cat 3 would not be cosidered a weak cane in my book. You misunderstood. A cat 1-2 could cause the levee system to fail in NO.

Houston, Miami would be a worse case scenario indeed but NO sitting below sea level is worse WORSE case scenario. As we have all seen.

[f5]

Katrina was NO worst nightmere when Katrina was raging in the gulf as a strong CAT 5 with her eye on NO.the only reason why i think she weaken was by divine intervention remember the forecast was worst case scenerio