Why Did They Stay?

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Ixolib
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Why Did They Stay?

#1 Postby Ixolib » Sat Feb 18, 2006 8:45 pm

While I realize this type of topic may me better suited for the "Aftermath Forum", I wanted to post it here - at least for a little while - because of the nature of its content. Not only does it nail home some of the true-life aspects of Katrina, it also provides some viewpoints on evacuation and warnings -- as in wind vs. surge (last paragraph).

Sat, Feb. 18, 2006
The Sun Herald

WHY DID THEY STAY?

By JOSHUA NORMAN
jdnorman@sunherald.com


Nadine Allen-Gifford, 79, built her Gulf Hills house in 1977 with hurricanes in mind, adding height and steel beams to its design.

Nadine's family frequently gathered at their home with her and her husband, E.W. "Ted" Gifford, 79, for festive occasions and to ride out storms.

When Hurricane Katrina was approaching, there was little question whether the Giffords would stay.

"We were very aware of the warnings," said Doug deSilvey, 59, who went to the couple's home to be with his ex-wife, the Giffords' daughter Linda deSilvey, 57, as well as his daughter, the Giffords' granddaughter Donna deSilvey, 35.

"We stayed at Nadine's house because it was tried and true," Doug said, adding a Camille standard was applied to their decision to stay, even though Nadine's house - which never flooded - had been built after that storm.

"We've always been together and supported each other. Even if Donna wouldn't have been called down here to consult, she would have come home for the hurricane anyway."

As Aug. 29 began, the Giffords and deSilveys ate breakfast and readied the house. Doug went outside to check on the generator after eating, and for the first time realized how bad things would become.

"I saw that my truck was already under water and I realized then that we couldn't go anywhere," Doug said.

Nadine had back problems and Ted had lost an eye, so evacuation at that point was out of the question. Even if they had decided to evacuate before the storm, Doug said, it would have been almost too hard.

Doug deSilvey was the only one to make it out of the house alive.

There is no one reason why Katrina's victims stayed on the Gulf Coast. Like the Giffords and deSilveys, many stayed because their experience had suggested they would be safe, and staying for storms was a tradition.

However, at least half of Katrina's victims moved here in the years after Hurricane Camille, and perhaps did not know how bad storms could be.

Additionally, more than two-thirds of Katrina's victims were of retirement age, and evacuating is especially complicated for those with health problems that accompany old age.

There were other reasons Katrina's victims did not leave:

• Inconsistent evacuation orders were not taken seriously.

• A fear that looters would strike after the storm.

• The idea they might be able to do something to save their house if they stayed.

• A lack of public shelters for pets.

• Bad experiences evacuating for other storms.

• A decision was too hard to make so they just stayed put.

• A lack of comfortable and cheap places to go and sometimes, no means to get there.

Ultimately though, the decision was a question of fear. Unlike the situation for many citizens in New Orleans, a very small percentage of Hurricane Katrina's South Mississippi victims had no means of evacuating. Everyone who left was afraid enough to leave. Evidence of this can be found in the fact that very few families with small children stayed behind and became casualties.

When Hurricane Ivan was barreling through the Gulf of Mexico a year earlier, South Mississippi civil defense officials issued a mandatory evacuation order for all areas south of Interstate 10, 48 hours before it made landfall.

By all accounts, nearly everyone left and Ivan barely brushed this part of the Gulf Coast.

In July 2005, as Category 4 Hurricane Dennis approached, officials hedged a bit and waited until about 36 hours before to order people only in low-lying areas to evacuate. Many local civil defense officials noted fewer people evacuated for Dennis than had for Ivan. Only Hancock County ordered all zones to evacuate.

Dennis ended up being a bad rainstorm in Mississippi, and many returned grumbling of the pains of evacuating for nothing.

Several weeks later, officials waited even longer to order mandatory evacuations. The evacuation orders were inconsistent in the coastal counties, with each county largely deciding on its own which flood zone to evacuate. Nearly all of the mandatory evacuation orders happened in only flood zones A and B, the lowest zones, just 24 hours before Hurricane Katrina made landfall. Flood zone C did not receive a mandatory evacuation order at any point, and lives and homes were lost to the surge in some parts of that zone on the Coast.

People such as Anna Ruiz of Bay St. Louis were tired of evacuating. The 74-year-old dancer with deep blue eyes decided the stress of evacuating was too much, so she stayed and died in her Clermont Harbor home.

"There's a frustration tolerance with these things that has to be managed properly," said Tim Donohoe, a counselor at the Applied Psychology Center in Biloxi who had decided to stay in his since-destroyed Waveland home until police asked him the night before the storm to write his social security number on his body in permanent marker for easy identification later on. "I think our systems for doing that are very inadequate. It's a cry-wolf thing. That can cloud judgment."

Donohoe said people have three responses to a potential threat or danger: fighting, fleeing or freezing. Many of the hurricane's victims were prone to the last one, especially the elderly.

Dr. Louis Maxey, 92, and his wife, Harneitha Maxey, 75, of Long Beach were just plain tired when the decision to evacuate came around. The Maxeys evacuated for Hurricane Ivan and Louis' health had suffered as a result. By the time Katrina came around, they decided to stay in their West Azalea Drive home. Neither survived.

Louis Maxey and many of the storm's victims, who had lived with the daily stresses poor health can bring, struggled with the additional stress of the approaching storm. This makes important decisions incredibly difficult. So they often make no decision, Donohoe said.

Even if someone was well aware at the time of what Katrina might do and the warnings were well heard, many felt the fate of their home was too important to leave to chance.

"Our homes are our sanctuaries," Tim Donohoe said. "It's where we take our safety and security when something threatens us like that."

The storm's oldest known victim, 96-year-old Pearl Frazier, did not leave because she wanted to stay in her beloved home on Biloxi's Back Bay that her late husband had built 30 years earlier.

The love of a place can be just as powerful a persuader over fear as loyalty to a person, a neighborhood and for many, to pets. For as many as a third of the hurricanes victims, there was no way they were going to leave a neighbor, a mother, a husband or a favorite animal behind, no matter how much their fear told them to do otherwise.

Kenneth Lantier came to Gulfport from Lake Charles, La., shortly before Hurricane Katrina to take care of his mother - Clay Lee Lantier. He doted on her and wanted to be there for her when the storm hit. The last time either was seen, Kenneth was floating his mother out of her apartment on a mattress.

Malcolm Blackwood of Pascagoula stayed and died in his home on Lemans Circle because of what relatives described as loyalty to his neighbors. The single 63-year-old could not bear the idea of leaving them alone.

Patricia Meeks of Waveland loved her dog and potbelly pig so much she could not leave them behind and died with them. The 60-year-old Chicago native's pig had grown too fat to fit in her car and even if it had, there are no public evacuation shelters that accept pets in Mississippi.

Roselyn Desrochers' 17 Chihuahuas would have been nearly impossible to care for on the road. Desrochers, 57, died while trying to rescue her dogs from her Clermont Harbor home.

Some, like Jack Prather of Dothan, Ala., felt a broader sense of duty to stay behind. Prather died making one last run in a van for the Seashore Mission United Methodist Church bringing people to safety.

There was no shortage of shelter space in Mississippi during Hurricane Katrina, said Robert Latham, director of the Mississippi Emergency Management Agency. Of the 70,000 available beds, only 17,000 were filled.

Latham is optimistic a "Katrina standard," which is much lower in terms of storm strength than the "Camille standard," will now be applied when people think about leaving for storms. Even then, he said his agency struggles with figuring out ways to get more people to leave earlier before bad storms.

"I don't know that I have a good solution to the problem," Latham said. "Now we have another challenge in public education: It's not about wind speed, it's about storm surge. I have some bold ideas but I'm not going to come and say this is what we're going to do. There's a certain percentage of the population that aren't going to leave, I don't care what."


Related: http://www.sunherald.com/mld/sunherald/13903306.htm?template=contentModules/printstory.jsp
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Jim Cantore

#2 Postby Jim Cantore » Sat Feb 18, 2006 9:08 pm

It just shows even more that not accepting pets into shelters likely caused 100-200 people to die maybe more :cry:
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#3 Postby f5 » Sat Feb 18, 2006 9:31 pm

why did they say?
Answer:I survived CAMILLE
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#4 Postby Ixolib » Sat Feb 18, 2006 9:50 pm

f5 wrote:why did they say?
Answer:I survived CAMILLE


Yep - That "was" our story for 36 years. Not anymore...

In fact, just for grins, I thought I'd post this interview my wife (she's the "good lookin' one" on the left :D ) and I did with CBS the day after the storm - August 30, 2005:

http://video.cgi.cbsnews.com/video/video.pl?url=/media/2005/08/30/video804023.wmv&sid=500202&dart=news.video
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#5 Postby MGC » Sat Feb 18, 2006 9:59 pm

I read this article earlier today. I found it incredible that many didn't leave because of their pets. The sad part is the availibility of shelter space that was not used. I believe that shelter space should be for humans only and not pets. Leave your pet in the car at the shelter......MGC
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#6 Postby george_r_1961 » Sat Feb 18, 2006 10:08 pm

MGC wrote:I read this article earlier today. I found it incredible that many didn't leave because of their pets. The sad part is the availibility of shelter space that was not used. I believe that shelter space should be for humans only and not pets. Leave your pet in the car at the shelter......MGC


I feel for people that have pets and do not want to leave them. When I had my cat there is NO way id leave her in a car alone in a hurricane EVEN if I had to stay in the car with her.
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#7 Postby terstorm1012 » Sat Feb 18, 2006 11:09 pm

I'm glad you posted this Ixolib. I got so irritated at people calling those who stayed behind idiots or stupid or "candidates for this year's Darwin Award."

this was a very good article, thanks again.
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#8 Postby JonathanBelles » Sat Feb 18, 2006 11:29 pm

i can tell ya this i will NEVER hunker down in the eye of a hurricane again
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#9 Postby Jim Cantore » Sat Feb 18, 2006 11:56 pm

I'd bring my pets and sleep in my car in a parking lot 200 miles inland
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#10 Postby Scorpion » Sun Feb 19, 2006 12:00 am

fact789 wrote:i can tell ya this i will NEVER hunker down in the eye of a hurricane again

Huh?
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#11 Postby f5 » Sun Feb 19, 2006 12:04 am

fact789 wrote:i can tell ya this i will NEVER hunker down in the eye of a hurricane again


move inland then
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#12 Postby hurricanetrack » Sun Feb 19, 2006 12:36 am

I think too that some people might have found a certain peace in dying with something so dear to them. It does not make it any less sad, but pets are as dear to some people as a human loved one. Who are we to know that some of these people were NOT at peace when those final moments came? Drowning or blunt force trauma is not pleasant- but being with those you love so dearly might have made their passing easier- in their minds.

Humans are curious animals too. Some people stayed to see what it would be like and HOPED it would not be too bad. I did that during Charley in my Tahoe SUV. I shoud have known better than to use GPS guided radar to position myself and my fellow crew member in the path of an intense hurricane. Yet my desire to see what it is like and to measure the forces over-ruled any logic. I was lucky- very lucky. Now I have the remote cameras to "see" for me during intense and deadly hurricanes. However, some people simply cannot fathom what it is like and are not motivated by even the most strongly worded messages from EM or the NWS or the NHC. I do not think that most people who died were stupid. Some probably did some stupid things- like became drunk the night before at a party, but I do not know anything about that for sure. My point is that Nature is always going to win in these situations. Hurricanes will kill people- and their pets. We as an intelligent society just need to make sure that the resources are available and publicized for people to take advantage of if they want to. The real tragedy comes when lessons are not learned and mistakes keep getting made over and over. Then we are made fools of- and that is not acceptable. Rita was a great example of people learning. Most fled Cameron Parish. I mean most if not all. Good for them. How many people died in the surge from Rita? I have no idea- not many. Yet Katrina killed hundreds- mostly because they did not believe it would happen. They probavbly felt safe- especially when the winds came down from 175. Now they know. We know. The key will be to put what we know to use the next time a hurricane of any strength threatens to make landfall. We shall see.
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#13 Postby TSmith274 » Sun Feb 19, 2006 4:02 am

Yep, the hard lessons of the behavior of a hurricane's storm surge were learned in '05. Hopefully we won't forget.
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#14 Postby Cookiely » Sun Feb 19, 2006 7:27 am

I think this statement should be number one on the list of why people stay.

"Our homes are our sanctuaries," Tim Donohoe said. "It's where we take our safety and security when something threatens us like that."
Before my grandmother passed away, we would have the same argument every year before hurricane season. She wanted us to come to her house in the event of a hurricane. She was not in an evacuation zone. This does not mean that you would be SAFE. I really think this needs to be stressed more often. Those not in an evacuation zone are encouraged to stay (WRONG) so that the ones that have to evacuate can do so. First of all she was much closer to Tampa Bay than we were. Her house was a sixty year old extremely well built frame home, but in the adjoining property ten feet from her house was a grand oak which was actually leaning onto the house next door. The owner of that home had gone under the house and cut roots from the tree which were protruding under the floor of the house which was poorly constructed. The tree limbs were huge over my grandmother's house. She also had an old avocado tree in her back yard that had sustained freeze damage in the past. The frame gargage next door to her was leaning and a category one would have certainly taken it apart and sent it flying. Our home was safer but she did not want to leave her home. I believe that she thought by being in the home she could save it from destruction. That she could protect the house and the house would protect her. One other thought that I haven't seen mentioned. Older people don't always trust banks, and they hide their savings. They hide it so well that it would not be easy to gain access so that they can leave. Like at the bottom of a fifty pound keg of nails anchored to a concrete floor.
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#15 Postby Ixolib » Sun Feb 19, 2006 10:07 am

Cookiely wrote:I think this statement should be number one on the list of why people stay.

"Our homes are our sanctuaries," Tim Donohoe said. "It's where we take our safety and security when something threatens us like that."
Before my grandmother passed away, we would have the same argument every year before hurricane season. She wanted us to come to her house in the event of a hurricane. She was not in an evacuation zone. This does not mean that you would be SAFE. I really think this needs to be stressed more often. Those not in an evacuation zone are encouraged to stay (WRONG) so that the ones that have to evacuate can do so. First of all she was much closer to Tampa Bay than we were. Her house was a sixty year old extremely well built frame home, but in the adjoining property ten feet from her house was a grand oak which was actually leaning onto the house next door. The owner of that home had gone under the house and cut roots from the tree which were protruding under the floor of the house which was poorly constructed. The tree limbs were huge over my grandmother's house. She also had an old avocado tree in her back yard that had sustained freeze damage in the past. The frame gargage next door to her was leaning and a category one would have certainly taken it apart and sent it flying. Our home was safer but she did not want to leave her home. I believe that she thought by being in the home she could save it from destruction. That she could protect the house and the house would protect her. One other thought that I haven't seen mentioned. Older people don't always trust banks, and they hide their savings. They hide it so well that it would not be easy to gain access so that they can leave. Like at the bottom of a fifty pound keg of nails anchored to a concrete floor.


All very good points... Human nature is certainly an interesting topic for discussion, but more importantly, I agree that the "human nature" should be taken into greater consideration when trying to convince people to leave. Interesting, too, in the article was the statement to the woman who was told "she would be found dead the next day with no clothes on" - apparently, that was the kicker that got her going!!

...whatever it takes.
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#16 Postby conestogo_flood » Sun Feb 19, 2006 10:09 am

You know, this is a very... different question... but did anyone from storm2k die in Katrina? I'm being serious. :eek:
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#17 Postby cajungal » Sun Feb 19, 2006 10:16 am

george_r_1961 wrote:
MGC wrote:I read this article earlier today. I found it incredible that many didn't leave because of their pets. The sad part is the availibility of shelter space that was not used. I believe that shelter space should be for humans only and not pets. Leave your pet in the car at the shelter......MGC


I feel for people that have pets and do not want to leave them. When I had my cat there is NO way id leave her in a car alone in a hurricane EVEN if I had to stay in the car with her.


There are pet friendly hotels. But, I realize many can't afford to stay at a hotel. We evacuated to my aunt and uncles home nearly 3 hours away in Central Louisiana for Katrina. Our first and only time we ever evacuated for any storm threat. Our yorkie Lacey had just died from old age and kidney failure only 2 months before. So, we did not have the worry of pets. But, now I have my new yorkie puppy Chloe. And I could never, ever leave her behind. Luckily, my relatives would not turn their backs on letting my pet stay with them for a disaster. But, many people don't have that option. Because if nobody would accept my pet, I would also take my chances.
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#18 Postby JonathanBelles » Sun Feb 19, 2006 11:11 am

f5 wrote:
fact789 wrote:i can tell ya this i will NEVER hunker down in the eye of a hurricane again


move inland then

that doesnt always work example:charley we would have went to orlando
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#19 Postby wxmann_91 » Sun Feb 19, 2006 12:03 pm

conestogo_flood wrote:You know, this is a very... different question... but did anyone from storm2k die in Katrina? I'm being serious. :eek:


I do not believe so; all the wonderful mods here made sure every member from that region was okay! :D
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#20 Postby Lindaloo » Sun Feb 19, 2006 2:03 pm

MGC wrote:I read this article earlier today. I found it incredible that many didn't leave because of their pets. The sad part is the availibility of shelter space that was not used. I believe that shelter space should be for humans only and not pets. Leave your pet in the car at the shelter......MGC


Well MGC, I did in fact TAKE CARE of all my animals for the storm and evacuated. I STILL lost some of my pets. I do not understand your unthoughtfulness!! :grr:
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