Great Thread: Truly Learning About Storms (EDITED)

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Recurve
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#81 Postby Recurve » Mon Dec 12, 2005 8:05 pm

Derek Ortt wrote:east coast of Florida is not storm surge prone. heights on the Florida EC (except in bays) are very similar to surges in the eastern caribbean and Cayman.

In Broward, a cat 5 will only produce about 10 feet max. That said, you would just have 50 foot waves



Great! I mean, what?
Derek, are you saying enormous surf/rollers from wind on top of surge would bring floodwaters miles inland -- even though the surge rise is only 10 ft.?
There's only gradual elevation rise to...what, 20 ft at Powerline road? Then it goes down again toward the Glades, (where levees holding back the Everglades would actually hold in surge floodwaters). Almost sounds like a bowl situation?
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#82 Postby Derek Ortt » Mon Dec 12, 2005 11:27 pm

surge does NOT go far inland from the Atlantic on the FL Peninsula. However, areas on the coast, while the actual surge is low, will see 50 foot waves, pummeling everything on the beach

the glades do not produce a surge as there is not much water to flood, plus, you have the marshes, slowing it down. Now, the Lake is a whole other issue entirely, as Wilma showed
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#83 Postby Tampa Bay Hurricane » Tue Dec 13, 2005 12:25 am

Derek Ortt wrote:surge does NOT go far inland from the Atlantic on the FL Peninsula. However, areas on the coast, while the actual surge is low, will see 50 foot waves, pummeling everything on the beach

the glades do not produce a surge as there is not much water to flood, plus, you have the marshes, slowing it down. Now, the Lake is a whole other issue entirely, as Wilma showed


50 foot waves!!!!!! :eek: :eek: :eek: I have got to get some video
of that- i'd leave a camera running and then evacuate if i were on
atlantic side ohhhh yeaa (the wavees are awesome but the
damage they do is horrible)

uggghh i have ap chem and ap statistics final exams tomorrow i studied
like a beast and am insane....
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#84 Postby Derek Ortt » Tue Dec 13, 2005 12:45 am

I need to stress one thing.

Dade county DOES get much higher tidal surges. Andrew produced 17 feet. The reason is Biscayne Bay. However, Miami Beach CANNOT receive anything over 10 feet due to the very deep water just offshore. The waves are much lower in mainland Dade, but the surge is higher. Thankfully, we have a hill nearly on the coast that the surge does not go beyond (about .1 miles from the beach)
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#85 Postby Zackiedawg » Tue Dec 13, 2005 10:20 am

As far as the Palm Beach county coastline, I don't know if we'd ever get to 50-footers, but it would still get messy along the beach. We have a few advantages that help our situation when it comes to storm surge and wave height.

For one, the gulf stream is at its closest point to land at southern Palm Beach county...which causes a cross current that seems to reduce the impact of waves on the coastline. The current probably saps some of the strength out of the wave by running perpendicular to the wave current.

Also, we have the Bahama islands scattered about just 100 miles away, which takes out the long ocean swells that build up in the hurricane for hundreds of miles. The Bahamas get pounded with the worst of the big waves, then the hurricane essentially has to start all new waves again before getting to Florida. This might reduce the size these swells can attain.

As for the question of the waves impacting miles inland...despite the height of the waves being 25, 30, or even 40 feet, and our cities being essentially at sea level, the waves still won't make it much past the barrier islands, nor will the predominant portion of surge. The barrier islands along much of the southern Palm Beach coast and northern Broward coast have a prominant ocean ridge running 20 feet or more over sea level, combined with a steeply slanted coastal runup, and then the intercoastal waterway as a buffer if a wave did actually make it over the island. Where there is no ocean ridge, the barrier island grows significantly wider, from Boynton Beach north to Palm Beach, and from Pompano Beach south into Lauderdale...so though there is no ridge to stop the waves, there is alot of land and the intercoastal is still there as a buffer.

We get a break from storm surge because of some of these factors too...the steeper coastal rise certainly prevents the miles-deep intrusions like the gulf coast is susceptible to, and with a basically flat coastline, we don't have the bays and long inlets for the surge to gather and push into.

Historical storms have caused damage as far as Swinton Blvd in Delray from flooding and surge, and to Federal Hwy in Boca Raton. Palm Beach island has flooded in the past, and Fort Lauderdale and Hollywood have been swamped up to a mile or so from the intercoastal. Generally, Federal Hwy is the surge point, excepting the few areas like Delray Beach at Atlantic, and the Fort Lauderdale Las Olas region which have less ocean ridge protection and flatter terrain farther inland.

Any farther west than Federal Highway, and your big worry will be wind, tornado, and debris. Surge could get to a few areas, but in the form of flooding, as opposed to bashing waves and fast moving currents. I would fear the Cat 4 or 5 in our area more for the number of trees and roof tiles that will be streaking through the skies like bullets, busting through windows and dropping through roofs!
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#86 Postby MiamiensisWx » Tue Dec 13, 2005 11:26 am

Zackiedawg wrote:As far as the Palm Beach county coastline, I don't know if we'd ever get to 50-footers, but it would still get messy along the beach. We have a few advantages that help our situation when it comes to storm surge and wave height.

For one, the gulf stream is at its closest point to land at southern Palm Beach county...which causes a cross current that seems to reduce the impact of waves on the coastline. The current probably saps some of the strength out of the wave by running perpendicular to the wave current.

Also, we have the Bahama islands scattered about just 100 miles away, which takes out the long ocean swells that build up in the hurricane for hundreds of miles. The Bahamas get pounded with the worst of the big waves, then the hurricane essentially has to start all new waves again before getting to Florida. This might reduce the size these swells can attain.

As for the question of the waves impacting miles inland...despite the height of the waves being 25, 30, or even 40 feet, and our cities being essentially at sea level, the waves still won't make it much past the barrier islands, nor will the predominant portion of surge. The barrier islands along much of the southern Palm Beach coast and northern Broward coast have a prominant ocean ridge running 20 feet or more over sea level, combined with a steeply slanted coastal runup, and then the intercoastal waterway as a buffer if a wave did actually make it over the island. Where there is no ocean ridge, the barrier island grows significantly wider, from Boynton Beach north to Palm Beach, and from Pompano Beach south into Lauderdale...so though there is no ridge to stop the waves, there is alot of land and the intercoastal is still there as a buffer.

We get a break from storm surge because of some of these factors too...the steeper coastal rise certainly prevents the miles-deep intrusions like the gulf coast is susceptible to, and with a basically flat coastline, we don't have the bays and long inlets for the surge to gather and push into.

Historical storms have caused damage as far as Swinton Blvd in Delray from flooding and surge, and to Federal Hwy in Boca Raton. Palm Beach island has flooded in the past, and Fort Lauderdale and Hollywood have been swamped up to a mile or so from the intercoastal. Generally, Federal Hwy is the surge point, excepting the few areas like Delray Beach at Atlantic, and the Fort Lauderdale Las Olas region which have less ocean ridge protection and flatter terrain farther inland.

Any farther west than Federal Highway, and your big worry will be wind, tornado, and debris. Surge could get to a few areas, but in the form of flooding, as opposed to bashing waves and fast moving currents. I would fear the Cat 4 or 5 in our area more for the number of trees and roof tiles that will be streaking through the skies like bullets, busting through windows and dropping through roofs!


Excellent points. I would also like to point out that much of the beaches along coastal Pompano Beach, Fort Lauderdale, and Hollywood in Broward County and the beaches from around parts of Boynton Beach and Delray Beach northward to Palm Beach have been largely overdeveloped. Also, those areas have been dredged, virtually obliterating the protective ridge that once existed on those barrier islands and some inland areas close by. Boca Raton, Highland Beach, and the southern coastal areas of Delray Beach, however, have left the original natural dune vegetation - and the associated, protective ridge - intact, both on the barrier islands and just inland. In addition, Boca Raton has preserved many areas inland and along the barrier islands as parks or natural preserves, leaving the natural dune vegetation, ridge, and natural coastal maritime hammocks (such as the Gumbo Limbo Environmental Complex) intact. Even in areas along Boca Raton's beaches that are developed, the ridge (both inland and coastal) and dune vegetation in front of the condos are left intact, at least in some way or degree. Highland Beach and Delray Beach, in which condos and buildings and residences are more "clustered" or overly developed, have also followed similar protective measures like Boca Raton has, leaving the ridge and vegetation intact, coexisting with nearby oceanfront developments. Do you agree, Zackiedawg?
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#87 Postby Derek Ortt » Tue Dec 13, 2005 11:35 am

I would disagree with the wave heights. Wave height and tidal surge are inversely proportional. Deeper water results in significantly higher waves, while shallow water leads to increased tidal surges
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#88 Postby MiamiensisWx » Tue Dec 13, 2005 11:38 am

Derek Ortt wrote:I would disagree with the wave heights. Wave height and tidal surge are inversely proportional. Deeper water results in significantly higher waves, while shallow water leads to increased tidal surges


So, you mean that areas in which deeper water (e.g., the areas around or within the Gulf Stream) is closer to or more easily accessible to the southeastern Florida Atlantic coast would get higher waves (e.g., Palm Beach and Broward counties), Ortt?
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#89 Postby Lindaloo » Tue Dec 13, 2005 11:47 am

Derek Ortt wrote:I would disagree with the wave heights. Wave height and tidal surge are inversely proportional. Deeper water results in significantly higher waves, while shallow water leads to increased tidal surges



You mean surge at high or low tide? Katrina's surge came in at high tide.
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#90 Postby Derek Ortt » Tue Dec 13, 2005 1:14 pm

not referring to the tides, but the depth of the water offshore. Areas, lik the GOM where there is a long fetch of shallow water, the surge is higher, than regions like Miami where there is very deep water just offshore on the ocean side
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#91 Postby Derek Ortt » Tue Dec 13, 2005 1:14 pm

yes, CV

the deeper water means higher wave heights, but a very low tidal surge height
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#92 Postby Zackiedawg » Tue Dec 13, 2005 1:18 pm

Derek Ortt wrote:I would disagree with the wave heights. Wave height and tidal surge are inversely proportional. Deeper water results in significantly higher waves, while shallow water leads to increased tidal surges


I definately agree with the fact that deeper water and steeper coastal ridge results in higher waves versus shallow coast rise and shallow water...but I figured that the proximity of the Bahamas would prevent any of the long-period waves building up in the storm from impacting much of the Florida coast. Though the deep water would allow the waves to build again, I would be surprised if the 85 to 130 mile distance of open water is enough to build waves to heights much above 30-35 feet...though I'm not an expert and would be willing to amend my thoughts if proven otherwise!

My theory: It seems the wave action built up by hurricanes relies not only on deeper waters but also on unimpeded distance to build those waves over open water. Even if a storm drops in intensity before landfall, the ocean swells it has created and pushed over hundreds of miles can still retain those mountainous wave heights, until they break on shallow reef or barrier islands. The Bahamas may act as a distant barrier island for much of south Florida, and giving the hurricane a much shorter distance of open water with which to build those waves.

Hurricanes Jeanne and Frances delivered far greater wave heights to the northern Bahama islands than what the treasure coast of Florida received...of course Bahamas also had to contend with higher storm surge. Frances may not count because she hit the Bahamas much stronger, then slowed down draastically and fell in intensity before striking Florida...but Jeanne seemed consistent in her speed and strength.

Just a theory of course!

Oh and, Capeverde, I agree about Boca Raton, Delray, Boynton, and the smaller ocean communities in Palm Beach that have preserved their ocean ridges and natural wetland areas as a storm buffer. Even into Broward county, southern Deerfield and Hillsboro Beach have retained parts of their ridge, and all would seem to stand a much better chance of weathering surge and waves.
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More Surge from Biloxi

#93 Postby rtd2 » Wed Dec 14, 2005 12:19 am

This surge was From Back Bay and several Miles inland from GOMEX



Image


Image


Image
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#94 Postby rtd2 » Wed Dec 14, 2005 12:22 am

Somebody Mentioned wind damage earlier. KAFB had PLENTY...flooding too heres a sample of Both. These were taken just blocks from where we sheltered on base..


Wind
Image


Water (This WAS the BX-Commessary!)


Image
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#95 Postby wxmann_91 » Wed Dec 14, 2005 12:47 am

Derek, I have a question.

What is more destructive - high waves or high surge? It looks from the pics more and more like that surge damages buildings, while waves on top of surge downright destroys them, since the aftermath pics look like the buildings affected by surge turned out all right.
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Derek Ortt

#96 Postby Derek Ortt » Wed Dec 14, 2005 8:53 am

basically, though surge can also wash them off of their foundation and can throw debris into the buildings. The waves just obliterate the buildings themselves
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#97 Postby wxmann_91 » Wed Dec 14, 2005 11:31 am

OK thanks Derek. :D
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#98 Postby Zackiedawg » Wed Dec 14, 2005 2:04 pm

Though not always a rule, generally you can say that when you see a house still looking whole moved far from its foundation, surge is the culprit, and when a house is smashed to debris, often waves are to blame.

Of course, waves on top of surge are the bigger problem, since the surge moves into areas not normally threatened by waves, and brings the waves with it to continually bump into the now-weakened structures.

Then again, many might say that the well-anchored objects and structures are one of the biggest destroyers of property in surge/wave conditions...since houses are pushed up against still-rooted trees, bridges, and poles, and broken apart. So the surge still has plenty of ways to break things down, even without the help of waves.

The Biloxi casinos were a good example of this...they floated, so surge itself didn't really hurt them...and the waves may have lapped over some of the lower floor, but not enough to break them up. But when the surge lifted the barges over the seawalls and docks and pushed them up against parking garage structures and hotel buildings, they crumbled and crunched and swamped.
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#99 Postby Ixolib » Wed Dec 14, 2005 7:26 pm

rtd2 wrote:Somebody Mentioned wind damage earlier. KAFB had PLENTY...flooding too heres a sample of Both. These were taken just blocks from where we sheltered on base...


Cool pics, rtd2!!! Thanks.

Interesting that those "waves" in the commissary parking lot are being driven from the S/SSE wind but the water came from the bay to the north. You could probably see some of my stuff floating in that parking lot as the surge went throuh me first on its way to the base!!

And as for wind damage, I agree - it does exist. My point, at least, is that the wind in Katrina was noticebly less than what I experienced in Camille. And just the opposite stands for the surge!!
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#100 Postby Jim Cantore » Fri Dec 16, 2005 11:53 am

dispite the 224mph gust in Biloxi I do question this

when Katrina came into Mississippi it was at 125mph a good moderate to high end 3. (I do believe her winds were higher then 125 at the time considering gusts near 140 in gulfport and the gulfport water tower being toppled)

At one point Katrina was at 175mph about 20-24 hours before that hit.

Camille was 190mph at landfall

Katrinas Surge 31-35 feet
Camilles 21-24 feet

That doesnt add up

Camille at its peak in the final 24 hours before landfall doesnt add up to be being over 165 in my mind

did she hit as a 5? Possibly (more likely when she hit the southeast tip of Lousiana) Would a cat 5 landfall make sense at the time she hit MIssissippi? Thats questionable. Should they re look over the data? You bet.

But I've never heard of a category 4 hurricane slamming a 224mph gust on land.
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