Great Thread: Truly Learning About Storms (EDITED)

[feederband]

Camille Who ?????


After this year its just another name to me....

[Derek Ortt]

the code itself was a problem during Andrew (and it still is today... nothing has changed in Dade as shown by Wilma)

roofs only have to sustain winds (and I believe thats gusts) to 110 m.p.h.

As for Homestead, most of Homestead did get cat 4 winds. There was just nothing on the coast to damage, except for Burger King.

Does anyone have the flight level winds, AND the level that the plane was flying at?

[CHRISTY]

[terstorm1012]

I don't agree...It is entirely possible that those buildings that remained standing were well constructed.

Even with Andrew, there were areas that had "superficial" damage and others that were completely destroyed. My uncles house for all intents and purposes should be gone but stood up and kept most of its roof. Storm surge was a different story.....but the house stood that too.

Not necessarily. First Baptist Church in Gulfport managed to survive Camille. The Church was destroyed by Katrina.

That sort of is my point. People expect when they hear 120, 130, 140 150 160 to see everything gone and air doesn't move like that. It forms eddys, bumps up against other things and flows around it. After Andrew I was kind of shocked to see that the storm, while it destroyed quite a bit, there would still be neighborhoods where everything was gone except for a couple houses with nary a scratch.

Wind is capricious.

[Lindaloo]

Hurricane Camille 1969

This powerful, deadly, and destructive hurricane formed just west of the Cayman Islands on August 14. It rapidly intensified and by the time it reached western Cuba the next day it was a Category 3 hurricane. Camille tracked north-northwestward across the Gulf of Mexico and became a Category 5 hurricane on August 16. The hurricane maintained this intensity until it made landfall along the Mississippi coast late on the 17th. Camille weakened to a tropical depression as it crossed Mississippi into western Tennessee and Kentucky, then it turned eastward across West Virginia and Virginia. The cyclone moved into the Atlantic on August 20 and regained tropical storm strength before becoming extratropical on the 22nd.



A minimum pressure of 26.84 inches was reported in Bay St. Louis, Mississippi, which makes Camille the second most intense hurricane of record to hit the United States. The actual maximum sustained winds will never be known, as the hurricane destroyed all the wind-recording instruments in the landfall area. The estimates at the coast are near 200 mph. Columbia, Mississippi, located 75 miles inland, reported 120 mph sustained winds. A storm tide of 24.6 ft occurred at Pass Christian, Mississippi. The heaviest rains along the Gulf Coast were about 10 inches. However, as Camille passed over the Virginias, it produced a burst of 12 to 20 inch rains with local totals of up to 31 inches. Most of this rain occurred in 3 to 5 hours and caused catastrophic flash flooding.

The combination of winds, surges, and rainfalls caused 256 deaths (143 on the Gulf Coast and 113 in the Virginia floods) and $1.421 billion in damage. Three deaths were reported in Cuba.



http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/HAW2/english/hi ... ml#camille

[Lindaloo]

Category Five Hurricane:
Winds greater than 155 mph (135 kt or 249 km/hr). Storm surge generally greater than 18 ft above normal. Complete roof failure on many residences and industrial buildings. Some complete building failures with small utility buildings blown over or away. All shrubs, trees, and signs blown down. Complete destruction of mobile homes. Severe and extensive window and door damage. Low-lying escape routes are cut by rising water 3-5 hours before arrival of the center of the hurricane. Major damage to lower floors of all structures located less than 15 ft above sea level and within 500 yards of the shoreline. Massive evacuation of residential areas on low ground within 5-10 miles (8-16 km) of the shoreline may be required.


According to this we had all of the above but the sustained winds.

Alot of you say that Mississippi saw CAT3 winds(Katrina) but we definitely had a CAT5 storm surge. I will not be surprised if they later upgrade Katrina to CAT5 like they did with Andrew.

[Zackiedawg]

People expect when they hear 120, 130, 140 150 160 to see everything gone and air doesn't move like that. It forms eddys, bumps up against other things and flows around it. After Andrew I was kind of shocked to see that the storm, while it destroyed quite a bit, there would still be neighborhoods where everything was gone except for a couple houses with nary a scratch.

Wind is capricious.

Thank you...that was the point I was intending to bring up as I read through the posts...but you got there first.

Though it is awfully traumatic going through a hurricane, and the stress, adrenaline, and many other factors can make the experience not only hellish but also become a bit of a big fish story for those who make it through. We all want to believe that the storm we experienced was big and bad, mostly to gain a foothold over our fears of how much worse it could be. Hey, I went through Camille, and it was a Cat 5...so I can go through anything!

Too many people suffered from that very mentality in MS and the number of people after the storm being interviewedd after clinging to a tree 25 feet up watching their house disappear made the same statement "my house survived Camille...I thought I'd be OK".

What you said is part of that factor...few take into consideration the fluctuations within a storm...the little nuances that create stronger and weaker winds, the various contributory factors such as landscape, building construction, location, that can vastly alter the effects of the same storm just a few hundred yards apart.

Just because a storm is rated with sustained Cat 5 winds...it doesn't mean that all locations within the hurricane windfield are receiving those Cat 5 winds, nor are most locations receiving the sustained winds all the time during the storm. Even a sustained measurement may have only been recorded in one location, while most others saw less. And the difference in gusts in any one area versus another can vary greatly...one area can get a gust 20MPH over the sustained winds, while another sees a 70MPH increased gust. With microbursts and tornadoes thrown in, you just don't know what you are going to get in any part of the storm.

It is even conceivable that someone in the middle bands of the storm, experiencing sustained Cat 2 winds, might experience a particularly powerful gust of 160 or 170 MPH which causes severe damage exceeding the damage suffered by someone else who went through the eyewall with sustained Cat 4 winds but without that ferocious gust.

I think that using damage as an indicator of category is a bad idea, and will always result in inaccurate measurements of a storm's intensity. With so many other factors, from construction, building codes, surrounding land friction or impediments, availability of destructive debris, and storm surge contributing to the amount of damage suffered in a particular area, the damage just cannot accurately portray the true windspeeds sustained in a given area.

Why more people can't understand the destructive potential of any hurricane instead of putting so much faith into the SS categories, I'll never understand. Knowing that my house might survive a Cat 4 hurricane with little or no damage doesn't mean it will survive a Cat 1 storm untouched. It just means that I was lucky. The next Cat 1 that comes through might drop a microburst or tornado through my area, and my Cat-4-surviving house could be gone. To have stayed along the MS coast with Katrina bearing down just because you made it through Camille seems (especially in hindsight) like a terrible misunderstanding of the nature of a hurricane...Whether Camille was a 4 or a 5 doesn't matter...it was big and destructive, and any person or structure that survived it did so partially through preparation and construction, but mostly on luck. As many found out in Katrina, the lesser-rated storm ended their lucky streak.

[Lindaloo]

Well said dawg!

[MiamiensisWx]

Oh... sorry for posting this thread without better information...

[rtd2]

Category Five Hurricane:
Winds greater than 155 mph (135 kt or 249 km/hr). Storm surge generally greater than 18 ft above normal. Complete roof failure on many residences and industrial buildings. Some complete building failures with small utility buildings blown over or away. All shrubs, trees, and signs blown down. Complete destruction of mobile homes. Severe and extensive window and door damage. Low-lying escape routes are cut by rising water 3-5 hours before arrival of the center of the hurricane. Major damage to lower floors of all structures located less than 15 ft above sea level and within 500 yards of the shoreline. Massive evacuation of residential areas on low ground within 5-10 miles (8-16 km) of the shoreline may be required.


According to this we had all of the above but the sustained winds.

Alot of you say that Mississippi saw CAT3 winds(Katrina) but we definitely had a CAT5 storm surge. I will not be surprised if they later upgrade Katrina to CAT5 like they did with Andrew.

I wouldnt be suprised at all if they bump Katrina to a 5 as we well know storms can ramp up in winds-pressure which increases surge-waves but even if the winds drop off before landfall the surge-waves are going in! I know here in Biloxi the Winds @ KAFB were atleast 130mph but watching some of the Storm chaser Video from Gulfport suggest to me they (G'port) actually experienced the outer edge of Katrina's Eyewall and those winds were certainly greater than 130mph . on base we had Several buildings (New) with Severe roof failure from Wind. of course we had Many parts of the base flooded with surge up to 8ft in some areas. My feeling (Non-Professional) is Katrina was a CAT 4-WINDS CAT 5 Surge from Gulfport West to MS/LA line and CAT 3-WINDS, CAT 5 Surge from Biloxi east to Pascagoula. Waveland, Pass christian, Bay st. louis and even Slidell may have experienced a CAT 5-WINDS, CAT 5 SURGE at the very least CAT-4 Winds and CAT-5 surge! Thats MY story and I'm sticking to it! Just like Camille WAS IS and will always be a cat 5 in the books!

[Tampa Bay Hurricane]

Yes Camille was a cat 5, just more compact...so the surge
was not as large and widespread as that of Katrina....

[MiamiensisWx]

Good points... I really should not have relied on pictures for Camille's strength. I'm sorry...



Good points also on the wind eddies. I am still learning, and I can be careless sometines...

[Lindaloo]

Good points... I really should not have relied on pictures for Camille's strength. I'm sorry...



Good points also on the wind eddies. I am still learning, and I can be careless sometines...

Aw don't worry about it. We are ALL here to learn!

[MiamiensisWx]

Thanks, Lindaloo!

Thank you...that was the point I was intending to bring up as I read through the posts...but you got there first.

Though it is awfully traumatic going through a hurricane, and the stress, adrenaline, and many other factors can make the experience not only hellish but also become a bit of a big fish story for those who make it through. We all want to believe that the storm we experienced was big and bad, mostly to gain a foothold over our fears of how much worse it could be. Hey, I went through Camille, and it was a Cat 5...so I can go through anything!

Too many people suffered from that very mentality in MS and the number of people after the storm being interviewedd after clinging to a tree 25 feet up watching their house disappear made the same statement "my house survived Camille...I thought I'd be OK".

What you said is part of that factor...few take into consideration the fluctuations within a storm...the little nuances that create stronger and weaker winds, the various contributory factors such as landscape, building construction, location, that can vastly alter the effects of the same storm just a few hundred yards apart.

Just because a storm is rated with sustained Cat 5 winds...it doesn't mean that all locations within the hurricane windfield are receiving those Cat 5 winds, nor are most locations receiving the sustained winds all the time during the storm. Even a sustained measurement may have only been recorded in one location, while most others saw less. And the difference in gusts in any one area versus another can vary greatly...one area can get a gust 20MPH over the sustained winds, while another sees a 70MPH increased gust. With microbursts and tornadoes thrown in, you just don't know what you are going to get in any part of the storm.

It is even conceivable that someone in the middle bands of the storm, experiencing sustained Cat 2 winds, might experience a particularly powerful gust of 160 or 170 MPH which causes severe damage exceeding the damage suffered by someone else who went through the eyewall with sustained Cat 4 winds but without that ferocious gust.

I think that using damage as an indicator of category is a bad idea, and will always result in inaccurate measurements of a storm's intensity. With so many other factors, from construction, building codes, surrounding land friction or impediments, availability of destructive debris, and storm surge contributing to the amount of damage suffered in a particular area, the damage just cannot accurately portray the true windspeeds sustained in a given area.

Why more people can't understand the destructive potential of any hurricane instead of putting so much faith into the SS categories, I'll never understand. Knowing that my house might survive a Cat 4 hurricane with little or no damage doesn't mean it will survive a Cat 1 storm untouched. It just means that I was lucky. The next Cat 1 that comes through might drop a microburst or tornado through my area, and my Cat-4-surviving house could be gone. To have stayed along the MS coast with Katrina bearing down just because you made it through Camille seems (especially in hindsight) like a terrible misunderstanding of the nature of a hurricane...Whether Camille was a 4 or a 5 doesn't matter...it was big and destructive, and any person or structure that survived it did so partially through preparation and construction, but mostly on luck. As many found out in Katrina, the lesser-rated storm ended their lucky streak.

Very good points.

[terstorm1012]

Good points indeed Zachdawg!

Same thing with Andrew. According to the actual reanalysis report, the only people who saw the Cat 5 winds lived in an area between Matheson Hammock and the Burger King HQ and I suppose Coconut Grove/Cutler Ridge--my south Dade geography isn't the best......everyone else saw 4 winds---yet everyone will say they lived through a 5.

Good points, everyone, actually.

[Derek Ortt]

Coconut Grove was about 10 miles north of the cat 5 winds

[rtd2]

Katrina is a prime example why the Media-Hype machine should'nt get hung up on catagories. IF* Katrina is kept at a cat 3-4 then she will have cause More damage at that catagory than ANY Cat 5 did (Andrew, camille, ect.) and the mis conception that its only a cat 2 or only a cat 3,ect can be deadly. iI remember people Going NUTS on Sunday when Katrina was still a Cat 5 but she dropped her winds down 10mph alot of people were letting there guard down! HELLO were still talking a STRONG cat 4 and The surge is Built so its coming in atleast a CAT 4 or higher! Even if Katrina's winds had dropped to say 115mph CAT-2 JUST before landfall we still would have seen a Destructive surge!....History can KILL!.....Here in South Ms folks said "I rode out Camille this isnt as bad"...some paid with there life.... Fact is Noone Knows what can happen in a storm till it has hit and its too late to leave.... Katrina was a Worst case scenerio= she came in a HIGH TIDE, ECT., but looking back it could have been WORSE! HOW? Katrina could have come in in the Middle of the night VS. Daylight...If this would have happened IMHO the Death toll/Injuries would have been MUCH higher! I think we should look at storms in more than 1 dimension...A storm that builds up to a cat 5 like Katrina did and then weakens some is STILL going to have a deadly surge...so whats worse a Cat 3 wind or a cat 5 surge? depends on your location!

[Tampa Bay Hurricane]

I apologize for acting on false assumption without seeing all the data.
Camille was certainly a very powerful category 5 at landfall.

[f5]

Camille's landfall pressure was 909mb.If Camille was really 190 mph sustained winds shouldn't the pressure be sub<900 mb.The 1935 labor day hurricane had a pressure at 892 mb with 180-190 mph sustained winds that i would believe but 909 mb pressure is usually 165-170mph sustained winds.

[Zackiedawg]

Good points indeed Zachdawg!

Same thing with Andrew. According to the actual reanalysis report, the only people who saw the Cat 5 winds lived in an area between Matheson Hammock and the Burger King HQ and I suppose Coconut Grove/Cutler Ridge--my south Dade geography isn't the best......everyone else saw 4 winds---yet everyone will say they lived through a 5.

Good points, everyone, actually.

I've got friends in Boca Raton, a good 75-80 miles north of Andrew, who said they've 'gone through Andrew', and then refer to its Cat 5 status. It isn't that they are stupid...they are just ignorant. They haven't learned how hurricanes work, how they are structured, the diminishing winds farther from the eye, the difference between sustained and maximum winds, etc.

I would venture a guess that the majority of the public is the same...so how damaging is it when media hypes the SS categories to a television viewing audience, considering that just within that viewing area there could be areas experiencing far different effects from the same storm?!

I wish they would start explaining the storm's size, forward speed, eyewall size, hurricane windfield, and other factors when warning the public about an impending hurricane...maybe the general public would have much greater respect for a Cat 1 hurricane if they understood that the gusts can still reach cat 5 intensity.

I've tried to sober my friends by letting them know that what they thought was amazing destruction last year during Frances was actually no more than high tropical storm force winds. And when they mention Wilma as a Cat 3, I try to clear up that a strong majority of areas within the eye path saw no more than Cat 1 sustained winds, with a few areas seeing some Cat 2s during the worst bits.

They see my lips moving, but I don't know if they understand the words that are coming out of my mouth! I hope for their sake they start respecting the 1s and 2s, because if we ever get a sustained 3 or 4...there may be alot more interviews with people in trees whose houses made it through Wilma!