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DoctorHurricane2003

#21 Postby DoctorHurricane2003 » Fri Nov 25, 2005 1:55 pm

The SSTA's were not above normal last year at this time. Noone was screaming for an active season this time last year. In fact, everyone was saying it would be more subdued than 2004. You cannot say next season will only have 15 or storms when we have no idea what the conditions will be like.


Actually they were. Look back at the numbers I posted before. +0.84 C is well above normal.


And BTW there seems to be a correlation between high SSTAs and amount of named systems.

Now, granted, if there is an El Nino that year, the El Nino event will trump the SSTAs in controlling the amount of named storms. Really, alll you have to do is go back into the link that I posted. The years 1969 and 1995 were well above average in terms of SSTAs and 2005 was record breaking.
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#22 Postby senorpepr » Fri Nov 25, 2005 10:21 pm

DoctorHurricane2003 wrote::wink:

Better bummed out now that hearing "THIS SEASON IS A DUD" every 5 posts and people getting bummed out because they will probably be wrong next year ;)
Unfortunately, those posts will continue. Even this year, a day without a storm meant a day with a "dud season" post.
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Weatherfreak000

yeah

#23 Postby Weatherfreak000 » Fri Nov 25, 2005 11:03 pm

I'm not one to gloat or rag on another else's opinions but....seriously....I find this SSTA's factor to be ridiculous.


Your telling me with the season on even over it's time to look for favorable conditions in the atlantic? Not even taking into account a storm active RIGHT NOW?



Excuse me from being blunt, but are insane?






I apologize for coming off rude but I find this debate ridiculous. We can't even begin to speculate conditions for the next season until at minimum after New Years.
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Re: yeah

#24 Postby Tampa Bay Hurricane » Fri Nov 25, 2005 11:26 pm

Weatherfreak000 wrote:I'm not one to gloat or rag on another else's opinions but....seriously....I find this SSTA's factor to be ridiculous.


Your telling me with the season on even over it's time to look for favorable conditions in the atlantic? Not even taking into account a storm active RIGHT NOW?



Excuse me from being blunt, but are insane?






I apologize for coming off rude but I find this debate ridiculous. We can't even begin to speculate conditions for the next season until at minimum after New Years.


joke post:

NOOOO!! it will be 25/15/9!!! NOO I MUST BE RIGHT
GRRR IF I AM WRONG DEATH TO ALL WHO EXCEED MY
ACCURACY
I AM THE EVIL LORD OF THE ATLANTIC HURRICANE!!!!

Yes I am hopelessly insane...

ASIDE FROM THAT: I love to theorize...I know it's too early but
just for the heck of it why not...it makes my writing skills good...
I try to stay within reason....
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DoctorHurricane2003

#25 Postby DoctorHurricane2003 » Fri Nov 25, 2005 11:52 pm

Your telling me with the season on even over it's time to look for favorable conditions in the atlantic? Not even taking into account a storm active RIGHT NOW?



Very offensive and you did not have to make a post that came off that way.

The point is to WATCH FOR TRENDS. That's one big part of science...trend watching.

The trend is down right now. This time last year the trend was up. Therefore, we may expect that this is a trend that will continue until a certain time, and may/should effect next years hurricane season in the sense that the SSTAs will not be record-breaking like this year was.
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Rainband

#26 Postby Rainband » Sat Nov 26, 2005 12:02 am

Experts say we are in a cycle of increased activity. The past two years have been like nothing we have seen. There is no reason to think this will not continue. There is no proof we will have a season next year like the previous two. there is no proof we won't either.
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DoctorHurricane2003

#27 Postby DoctorHurricane2003 » Sat Nov 26, 2005 1:46 am

Just because we are in a cycle of increased activity, though, doesn't mean every year is going to have 30 named storms.

Look at the years 1950-1969, for example.

I don't doubt next year will be active, but right now the TRENDS...note the use of that word, are for it to not be as active as this year...which was record breaking, meaning we won't see it all the time.
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Re: yeah

#28 Postby Jim Hughes » Sat Nov 26, 2005 7:42 am

Weatherfreak000 wrote:I'm not one to gloat or rag on another else's opinions but....seriously....I find this SSTA's factor to be ridiculous.


Your telling me with the season on even over it's time to look for favorable conditions in the atlantic? Not even taking into account a storm active RIGHT NOW?



Excuse me from being blunt, but are insane?






I apologize for coming off rude but I find this debate ridiculous. We can't even begin to speculate conditions for the next season until at minimum after New Years.



The outlook for next season, from Dr Gray's team , or I guess we should say Klotzbach's now, is coming out in less than a week. So they must think that it is possible to accurately forecast way out in advance.


Jim
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#29 Postby Lindaloo » Sat Nov 26, 2005 7:43 am

DoctorHurricane2003 wrote:Just because we are in a cycle of increased activity, though, doesn't mean every year is going to have 30 named storms.

Look at the years 1950-1969, for example.

I don't doubt next year will be active, but right now the TRENDS...note the use of that word, are for it to not be as active as this year...which was record breaking, meaning we won't see it all the time.


I sure hope this theory is correct. Would NOT bother me any. :D
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#30 Postby Jim Hughes » Sat Nov 26, 2005 8:05 am

DoctorHurricane2003 wrote:Just because we are in a cycle of increased activity, though, doesn't mean every year is going to have 30 named storms.

Look at the years 1950-1969, for example.

I don't doubt next year will be active, but right now the TRENDS...note the use of that word, are for it to not be as active as this year...which was record breaking, meaning we won't see it all the time.



You are bringing a level head to the table and this is always good in my opinion. I basically agree with everything that you are saying but here is something for us to consider even if you or I may not think that this is true.

What if the low end of this increased cycle was 1995' until recently and the past two years were middle of the road or slightly higher? Just a thought. This would not mean that next year would be like this year but it also may not take another 40-60 years to see a similar season.


Jim
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#31 Postby wxwatcher91 » Sat Nov 26, 2005 8:41 am

~Floydbuster wrote:I expect an above average season...meaning that I expect to see to Hurricane Nadine or Hurricane Sandy, which is about 15-18 named storms. That seems to be the normal average in this active period. However...getting to the GREEK ALPHABET would have probably only happened twice since records were kept. 1933 (OFFICIALLY 21, but we probably had at least one more)...and 2005. That is a period of 72 years between greek names. In Hurricane Season 2077, we may see Alpha again...or before then. There is no being OVERDUE or way to mark history. Just because a 140 mph hurricane slammed into Buras, LA in 2005...does not mean that a 150 mph can't slam into Buras, LA in 2006. It's all a game of chance.

Let's say this June/July had been normal...with one named storm each month. That would mean that we have 20 named storms.

Hurricane FRANKLIN...is an August hurricane that was Katrina. Normally, the August storm is the F name...IE Frances, Fabian, ect.

Hurricane LEE...the September hurricane that was Rita. Normally, the September storm is the G-L name...IE Luis, Gilbert, Ivan, Georges.

Hurricane PHILIPPE...the October hurricane that was Wilma. Normally, October hurricanes do not get past M, N or O...however, exceptions such as Roxanne have been seen in extreme seasons like 2005, 1995, ect.

NOV 2005...we are tracking TROPICAL STORM VINCE...which is actually Delta.

The JULY is what made this season hit Greek...and that is very rare.


sorry but it wasnt just July. remember October? yeah theres 6 named storms for ya!

yeah August and September couldve been very active however SAL and shear held them back.

June: 1 above average
July: 3 above average
August: 2 above average
September: 2 above average
October: 4 above average
November: 1 above average
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Weatherfreak000

Re: yeah

#32 Postby Weatherfreak000 » Sat Nov 26, 2005 10:28 am

Jim Hughes wrote:
Weatherfreak000 wrote:I'm not one to gloat or rag on another else's opinions but....seriously....I find this SSTA's factor to be ridiculous.


Your telling me with the season on even over it's time to look for favorable conditions in the atlantic? Not even taking into account a storm active RIGHT NOW?



Excuse me from being blunt, but are insane?






I apologize for coming off rude but I find this debate ridiculous. We can't even begin to speculate conditions for the next season until at minimum after New Years.



The outlook for next season, from Dr Gray's team , or I guess we should say Klotzbach's now, is coming out in less than a week. So they must think that it is possible to accurately forecast way out in advance.


Jim



Incorrect, they modify their predictions in later times in the year. Everyone knows that.



They don't even try to guess the conditions in the Atlantic this far out either.
Last edited by Weatherfreak000 on Sat Nov 26, 2005 10:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: yeah

#33 Postby WindRunner » Sat Nov 26, 2005 10:30 am

Weatherfreak000 wrote:Incorrect, they modify their predictions in later times in the year. Everyone knows that.



But they still do the forecast in mid-December for something 7-12 months away.
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Re: yeah

#34 Postby Weatherfreak000 » Sat Nov 26, 2005 10:34 am

WindRunner wrote:
Weatherfreak000 wrote:Incorrect, they modify their predictions in later times in the year. Everyone knows that.



But they still do the forecast in mid-December for something 7-12 months away.



It's just a clever little media play from where i'm sitting. Something "interesting" to read or see on the news/radio/Paper. I don't even think I should explain why these factors are pointless at best.


Take a football game for example, you make your guess on how your team is gonna perform even though you have no evidence to lean on any one way. Then during the game you see things that sway your opinion left and right until you reach a conclusion at the end. (Via beginning of the season).


My point? The Storm Count is a GUESS, not a forecast.
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Re: yeah

#35 Postby Jim Hughes » Sat Nov 26, 2005 10:46 am

Weatherfreak000 wrote:
Jim Hughes wrote:
Weatherfreak000 wrote:I'm not one to gloat or rag on another else's opinions but....seriously....I find this SSTA's factor to be ridiculous.


Your telling me with the season on even over it's time to look for favorable conditions in the atlantic? Not even taking into account a storm active RIGHT NOW?



Excuse me from being blunt, but are insane?






I apologize for coming off rude but I find this debate ridiculous. We can't even begin to speculate conditions for the next season until at minimum after New Years.



The outlook for next season, from Dr Gray's team , or I guess we should say Klotzbach's now, is coming out in less than a week. So they must think that it is possible to accurately forecast way out in advance.


Jim



Incorrect, they modify their predictions in later times in the year. Everyone knows that.



They don't even try to guess the conditions in the Atlantic this far out either.



Whether they modify them or not is unimportant in reference to what I was pointing out. They also modify their outlooks throughout the whole season now with these monthly late season updates. Is their June 1st outlook unimportant or unreliable then?

I am sorry but if they thought their December outlooks were unimportant they would not be givng one out.

Look I would hate to ruin everyone's perception but forecasting teleconnections patterns well out in advance is not exactly a hard thing to do if you understand how the dice can get loaded by way of the feedbacks.


Jim
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Re: yeah

#36 Postby WindRunner » Sat Nov 26, 2005 11:19 am

Weatherfreak000 wrote:
WindRunner wrote:
Weatherfreak000 wrote:Incorrect, they modify their predictions in later times in the year. Everyone knows that.



But they still do the forecast in mid-December for something 7-12 months away.



It's just a clever little media play from where i'm sitting. Something "interesting" to read or see on the news/radio/Paper. I don't even think I should explain why these factors are pointless at best.


Take a football game for example, you make your guess on how your team is gonna perform even though you have no evidence to lean on any one way. Then during the game you see things that sway your opinion left and right until you reach a conclusion at the end. (Via beginning of the season).


My point? The Storm Count is a GUESS, not a forecast.



Have you ever thoroughly read one of their reports? The detail they go into about each and every factor they consider for each and every forecast is laid out for anyone to see. And do you think the media doesn't have enough things to report on the week before Christmas? It sure isn't a "clever little media play", just the thought of it being one is rather disrespectful to the people who spend so much time putting together these forecasts. They do this to try to improve our forecasting capabilities so that maybe, one day, we won't have people calling these forecasts "media plays" as a forecast made in December will be just as accurate as a September forecast from this year. It's that kind of accuracy, and better, that the entire forecast community is striving for, and it seems like some people just don't want to support the foundation for such a future.
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DoctorHurricane2003

#37 Postby DoctorHurricane2003 » Sat Nov 26, 2005 2:44 pm

Whether they modify them or not is unimportant in reference to what I was pointing out. They also modify their outlooks throughout the whole season now with these monthly late season updates. Is their June 1st outlook unimportant or unreliable then?

I am sorry but if they thought their December outlooks were unimportant they would not be givng one out.

Look I would hate to ruin everyone's perception but forecasting teleconnections patterns well out in advance is not exactly a hard thing to do if you understand how the dice can get loaded by way of the feedbacks.


Jim




I think part of the problem is that there are a slim number of people out there who get terribly upset if some evidence comes out that it won't go the way they would like it to go. It's sad, but unfortunately true.
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Weatherfreak000

#38 Postby Weatherfreak000 » Sat Nov 26, 2005 3:38 pm

DoctorHurricane2003 wrote:
Whether they modify them or not is unimportant in reference to what I was pointing out. They also modify their outlooks throughout the whole season now with these monthly late season updates. Is their June 1st outlook unimportant or unreliable then?

I am sorry but if they thought their December outlooks were unimportant they would not be givng one out.

Look I would hate to ruin everyone's perception but forecasting teleconnections patterns well out in advance is not exactly a hard thing to do if you understand how the dice can get loaded by way of the feedbacks.


Jim




I think part of the problem is that there are a slim number of people out there who get terribly upset if some evidence comes out that it won't go the way they would like it to go. It's sad, but unfortunately true.



Perhaps you should be aware of where your foot is now my friend. I'll give you a hint, your mouth.



Where you not the one debating the lowering SSTA's approach when Mets showed it was clearly a circumstantial method of determining activity in a hurricane season?


If you ask my opinion, your clearly terribly upset we all don't agree that SSTA's don't clearly point to any sort of conclusion in activity next season.


Now that we have established that, i'd like to give a little word on Windrunner's post.



Clearly your not accepting an obvious truth about the NHC. They do their job because WE fund them and they get the gadgets to do their job. I accept all that and i'm not necessarly downing their work so far but if you ask me their performance this season has been hardly average.



When it boils down to it, the entire basis of tracking hurricanes is nothing more than a educated GUESS. From the 3 day track to the model runs every bit of info is concluded to find a base average. Seriously it's like the forecasters aren't even using the old noodles anymore. But of course assuming they were, it's no different then talking about computers. It's all about equations, guesswork and technology.


There is nothing about the approaching outlook that isn't gonna be guesswork. They'll make it clear that ASSUMING this won't be an El Nino year such and such SHOULD occur which SHOULD cause the following which SHOULD give us around blank TS's,Minors and Majors.


Also to conclude, the fact that you'd say the media would "have better things to cover" then the NHC's outlook is probably more insulting then the comments I made beforehand. I mean, it's not like we'd be following after arguably the worst hurricane season ever you know.


I think I have made my opinion very clear and easy to understand, and i'm not gonna continue to argue it. If you think i'm a jerk for bashing the NHC then fine.
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#39 Postby DoctorHurricane2003 » Sat Nov 26, 2005 4:01 pm

Where you not the one debating the lowering SSTA's approach when Mets showed it was clearly a circumstantial method of determining activity in a hurricane season?


:roll: My point was to say that given the fact that we should have a weak La Nina next year, the SSTAs should not allow for as active as a season next year, given current trends. The SSTAs are a good factor to use but it is NOT the only factor, that is correct. However, given the status of OTHER factors, the SSTAs should do what I described.


And in response to the rest of your post, you are obviously bashing meteorology as a science. It is a lot more than just 'educated guesswork.' Perhaps you should pick up a dynamic meteorology textbook and look into it the next time you are around a college that offers meteorology as a major.
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#40 Postby WindRunner » Sat Nov 26, 2005 4:05 pm

You are most certainly not bashing the NHC, it's just that you have taken everything that forecasters have been trying to better for over one hundred years now, and called it an "educated guess." Have you actually seen some of the error analyses put out by these places? They are remarkably accurate considering how little we know about weather. The fact that we have forecasts anywhere near as accurate as what we have today is rather comforting to a vast majority of the people in the world. And in reference to your first segment, the "obvious truth" about the NHC is that it could do a remarkably better job if it received more funding and a little more thought was put into what would happen if all of NOAA's budget was increased. I believe someone on this forum did the math at one point, and NOAA's budget amounts to approximately $34/taxpayer. Could you stand doubling that knowing that your forecast would be several times better? And as for assuming about El Nino, well, we could have this argument over again with how they actually forecast El Nino 9 months in advance, which is actually one of the more accurate long-term forecasts our government produces at this point.

How dare you say that NHC forecasters don't use their heads when producing a forecast? That is one of the most absurd things I have ever heard. Have you followed this season at all? Have you seen the number of times the NHC forecasters have gone against ALL models for three straight days, only to see the models come back to their track? I have seen this happen several times this season, and I think that this proves that we have some of the brightest forecasters working for our National Hurricane Center and that they know what to pay attention to in a particular situation.

Now, as for being done arguing, you produce some forecasts for the next couple of seasons that are consistently better than the NHC's and the Colorado State team's, and then I think you can post your opinion on good factors to look at for a season. Until then, these are some incredibly intelligent minds that know more than most of us will ever know about the weather, and it would do us all good to pay attention.
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