Katrina H-Wind Analysis, marginal 3 at landfall

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oneness
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#741 Postby oneness » Wed Oct 12, 2005 12:19 am

TSmith274 wrote:But, as a useful observation, it may be wise to make the categorizing of hurricanes a more complex criteria. Wind damage alone doesn't translate to anything. Hurricanes are much more than wind. Therefore, the category is pretty much meaningless. That's a problem.



Which is the classic problem of abstraction verses reality. An abstract quantitative categorisation does not and can not convey what that category actually means. Given what you’ve personally learned from this direct experience of a massive Cat 3, do you think you could ever convey this reality accurately enough for another person to fully perceive it and properly understand the impact? The fact is the words fail. A terse quantitative classification of wind speed, plus a brief verbal summarisation of associated damage levels does not translate well in people’s minds in advance of the shocking reality.

But even with a more thorough classification and description, each storm, and each landfall geography, and each atmospheric context, is completely unique, as well as more or less unknown. Thus the full effects of measured wind intensities is not adequately predictable. Storms keep proving this to be so. When NOAA forecasts a >25 foot storm surge, firstly, many people won’t believe it, that it’s a likely outcome, and secondly, they don’t know what that is or how it would be expressed, or what it will do. Then the surge turns out to be even higher. People at Mobile clearly were not expecting the depth of the surge they experienced from Katrina and the reporters at the time were shocked by it’s sudden appearance that far East of the eye.

So how can the warning agency provide a more meaningful context regarding the observed numbers when the projections and intensities they do give don’t register well with people? It's doubtful a diversification of classifications would serve to better warn or inform people of what’s closing-in on their location. Maybe if the warning agency provided appropriate video footage montages within it’s own video-based warning productions, showing typical effects and the aftermath scenes of the relevant category of intensity which the storm is currently at, then perhaps people might better grasp the situation? It’s my view that sometimes it’s appropriate to scare the you-know-what out of people—sometimes that is essential. Remember the frank and detailed text description of expected effects the evening before Katrina came ashore? But even this can occasionally backfire and seem like the-boy-who-cried-wolf if the video effect depiction does not develop within the warning area at landfall. One thing clear from this discussion is that people generally don’t know the practical differences between the current five categories, and nor can they estimate sustained wind speeds to save themselves.

I hope someone in the position to do so will commission a detailed documentary regarding what the Saffir-Simpson categories physically actually mean with particular emphasis given to the shattering blows a well-organised genuine Cat 3 can deliver—a common category of storm which is apparently very poorly apprehended by the public.
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#742 Postby Javlin » Wed Oct 12, 2005 3:04 pm

TS Zack wrote:Just thought I would pass this along.

Here our some pictures from St. Bernard Parish. That is maybe less than a mile East of me. WE WERE SO LUCKY unlike poor St. Bernard.

http://www.wwltv.com/cleanup/60.htm


Sad Zack most of the shots I have seen were areial of NO downtown.Looks alot like parts of the MGC.Has anyone took the time to look at the video Aqua put in another thread.Makes you wonder about a marginal Cat3 in the Bay and Waveland area.While I agree with the H-wind analysis Gulfport on E the trees in Bay area seem to be possibily telling a different story.While the H-wind analysis shows a 90kts over my place here in W Biloxi doesn't that mean a higher value 30-40miles to my W.
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#743 Postby fasterdisaster » Wed Oct 12, 2005 7:57 pm

Yes it does, and I REALLY think Katrina was a Cat. 4 at LA landfall(135-145 mph), and at the very least 120 mph at MS landfall.
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#744 Postby Matt-hurricanewatcher » Wed Oct 12, 2005 8:00 pm

I believe that Katrina made first landfall with near 125 mph. I believe that she had lost her inner core because of the shear. In at second landfall holded around 120 to 125 mph. What made her do what she did was she had a large area of winds.
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#745 Postby fasterdisaster » Wed Oct 12, 2005 8:11 pm

She looked ragged at LA landfall, but usually, storms down to 125 mph and weakening look worse than she did at landfall. I would accept 135 mph in a reanalysis of some type, but Rita for example, looked a little worse than Katrina did at landfall.
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#746 Postby Stormcenter » Wed Oct 12, 2005 9:54 pm

Matt-hurricanewatcher wrote:I believe that Katrina made first landfall with near 125 mph. I believe that she had lost her inner core because of the shear. In at second landfall holded around 120 to 125 mph. What made her do what she did was she had a large area of winds.


It's too bad for the folks of La.& Ms that her damage didn't reflect your winds. I think you need to add 15 mph to your top speed.
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#747 Postby Scorpion » Wed Oct 12, 2005 11:19 pm

Matt-hurricanewatcher wrote:I believe that Katrina made first landfall with near 125 mph. I believe that she had lost her inner core because of the shear. In at second landfall holded around 120 to 125 mph. What made her do what she did was she had a large area of winds.


What shear? There was little shear. It was dry air that wrapped in. And I hardly call it losing her core. She lost part of the western side but thats it. The eye was still there and quite intact.
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#748 Postby timNms » Sun Oct 16, 2005 12:55 am

Matt-hurricanewatcher wrote:I believe that Katrina made first landfall with near 125 mph. I believe that she had lost her inner core because of the shear. In at second landfall holded around 120 to 125 mph. What made her do what she did was she had a large area of winds.


matt, she must have found that inner core by the time she got to Hattiesburg. Cause a few mins after that, she made it to Seminary and there was nothing weak about her inner core as she lashed us with extreme winds and rain!
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#749 Postby f5 » Sun Oct 16, 2005 2:02 am

Stormcenter wrote:
Matt-hurricanewatcher wrote:I believe that Katrina made first landfall with near 125 mph. I believe that she had lost her inner core because of the shear. In at second landfall holded around 120 to 125 mph. What made her do what she did was she had a large area of winds.


It's too bad for the folks of La.& Ms that her damage didn't reflect your winds. I think you need to add 15 mph to your top speed.


exactly it looks like a bunch of atomic bombs went off nothing but concrete slabs
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#750 Postby Recurve » Sun Oct 16, 2005 2:08 am

f5 wrote:
Stormcenter wrote:
Matt-hurricanewatcher wrote:I believe that Katrina made first landfall with near 125 mph. I believe that she had lost her inner core because of the shear. In at second landfall holded around 120 to 125 mph. What made her do what she did was she had a large area of winds.


It's too bad for the folks of La.& Ms that her damage didn't reflect your winds. I think you need to add 15 mph to your top speed.


exactly it looks like a bunch of atomic bombs went off nothing but concrete slabs


Yeah, but the winds didn't vaporize houses so there was nothing but concrete slabs left, that was water that washed them away. So what's your point?
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#751 Postby f5 » Sun Oct 16, 2005 2:15 am

my point is their was nothing weak about it.espically if your fighting storm surge trying to cling on to dear life
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#752 Postby JamesFromMaine2 » Sun Oct 16, 2005 2:15 am

Does it really matter what her winds were at landfall? I don't think so! All that matters is that she was one if not the deadlyest storms in history! She left alot of dead, injured, or homeless! For those people trying to get their lifes back to some what normal I have a feeling that how strong Katrina's winds were is the farthest thing on thier minds! And I my self don't think that a 35+ page post fighting about what her winds were at landfall is going to do any one any good! So instead of fighting back and forth why not do something constructive with your time that could help some one else!
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#753 Postby Valkhorn » Sun Oct 16, 2005 2:33 am

Has anyone actually looked at the damage more inland away from the storm surge?

It seems like those who are trying to downplay the winds from Katrina are completely ignoring the fact that there was historicly bad wind damage as far north as Columbus, MS.
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#754 Postby Recurve » Sun Oct 16, 2005 2:42 am

I think we need to discuss facts about the winds at landfall, from the standpoint (as has been mentioned here a few times) of emergency preparedness, future warnings and evacuations, knowledge of damage vs. category descriptions, and so on.

I know that everything about this storm is a catastophe. I hope people can accept discussion of the topic and not see it as disrespectful of anyone's loss and suffering. 35 pages of discussion is nothing if it leads to understanding.
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#755 Postby f5 » Sun Oct 16, 2005 3:24 am

the intensity of Katrina is this peoples lives are traumatize forever.they lost everything doesn't matter if its a slab in mississippi or a house filled with mold in NO its a total lost
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