Police Brutality - Plain and Simple

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Windy
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#21 Postby Windy » Mon Oct 10, 2005 2:27 pm

GalvestonDuck wrote:
Windy wrote:
Miss Mary wrote:Linda's very close to the situation down there, so let's give her the benefit of the doubt. She's probably more in the know than the rest of us.


Er... huh? She was there? Heck, we've all seen the video -- unless she was there on the scene and saw what transpired before the camera rolled, I don't think she has any special insight into this. Certainly not enough to justify it by telling everyone that black people do bad things, too.


She saw it and survived it as well. It's called "Katrina."


Sure, but how does surviving Katrina give one some special insight into whether or not this particular 64 year old gentleman needed to be beaten until a river of blood flowed from him into a gutter, and whether or not it was right for a police officer to slam a reporter into a car and punch him in the gut just for being there? If she lived in New Orleans (which I don't think she does -- she's east a bit), she might have some backstory to explain -- though not justify -- the actions in the video, but even then it wouldn't give her any specific insight into this particular case. And really, her comments weren't directed specifically at the case, but rather were a vent of frustration that we all aren't discussing the bad things that black people do, instead.
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#22 Postby GalvestonDuck » Mon Oct 10, 2005 2:51 pm

Windy wrote:
GalvestonDuck wrote:
Windy wrote:
Miss Mary wrote:Linda's very close to the situation down there, so let's give her the benefit of the doubt. She's probably more in the know than the rest of us.


Er... huh? She was there? Heck, we've all seen the video -- unless she was there on the scene and saw what transpired before the camera rolled, I don't think she has any special insight into this. Certainly not enough to justify it by telling everyone that black people do bad things, too.


She saw it and survived it as well. It's called "Katrina."


Sure, but how does surviving Katrina give one some special insight into whether or not this particular 64 year old gentleman needed to be beaten until a river of blood flowed from him into a gutter, and whether or not it was right for a police officer to slam a reporter into a car and punch him in the gut just for being there? If she lived in New Orleans (which I don't think she does -- she's east a bit), she might have some backstory to explain -- though not justify -- the actions in the video, but even then it wouldn't give her any specific insight into this particular case. And really, her comments weren't directed specifically at the case, but rather were a vent of frustration that we all aren't discussing the bad things that black people do, instead.


Huh? You're putting words into people's mouths now. Where'd she say anything about justifying what happened in the video? She wanted to know why noone was outraged about the cops previous actions. She wasn't trying to justify or explain anything from what I read. She was asking for further explanations.

As for how surviving Katrina gives her any insight into the situation -- I'd imagine it has to do with the differences in how looters were handled and how police behaved.
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#23 Postby kevin » Mon Oct 10, 2005 3:01 pm

Heck I didn't even notice the race of the people involved, and I don't give a rat's behind. It shouldn't matter.

Am I enraged when people do horrible things? Yes.
Am I enraged when authority is misused? Yes.

I am in fact enraged whenever race is used as an excuse or a counter argument. I feel no loyalty to any idea of caucasian. It disgusts me when people use skin pigment to make an argument, one way or the other. The police didn't brutalize this man because of race, they did so because of power.

Its my opinion (unpopular as this is going to be), that people who seek positions of authority must be held to the highest level of obediance to justice and the law. Why moreso? Because these same type of people, the ones who want to be the police, are the same personality type in Zimbabwe as they are in America. While they serve a valuable social need, and in this country protect and defend society from evil men, the only thing more dangerous than criminals is power in the hands of men above the law.
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#24 Postby sunny » Mon Oct 10, 2005 3:05 pm

You are right, Kevin, in the aspect that people who abuse power should be held accountable. I don't think anyone here has argued that fact. Heck, I'm the first one to say if this was, as if first appears, to be outright police brutality, these police officers should be punished.

But as I said before, there is lots more going on down here than meets the eye. And I have a feeling it is about to get worse come VERY SOON.
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#25 Postby streetsoldier » Mon Oct 10, 2005 3:17 pm

kevin wrote:Heck I didn't even notice the race of the people involved, and I don't give a rat's behind. It shouldn't matter.

Am I enraged when people do horrible things? Yes.
Am I enraged when authority is misused? Yes.

I am in fact enraged whenever race is used as an excuse or a counter argument. I feel no loyalty to any idea of caucasian. It disgusts me when people use skin pigment to make an argument, one way or the other. The police didn't brutalize this man because of race, they did so because of power.

Its my opinion (unpopular as this is going to be), that people who seek positions of authority must be held to the highest level of obediance to justice and the law. Why moreso? Because these same type of people, the ones who want to be the police, are the same personality type in Zimbabwe as they are in America.]le they serve a valuable social need, and in this country protect and defend society from evil men, the only thing more dangerous than criminals is power in the hands of men above the law.


Actually, kevin, you are but partly correct. Incoming police officers are usually idealistic, and genuinely want to "protect and serve"; it's the CAREER officers (ten years or more) whose personality profiles come to match those of the thugs they are after.

When a cop begins to see, not citizens in need, but everyone as a "felon waiting to get out"? They've been on the force too long.
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#26 Postby kevin » Mon Oct 10, 2005 3:35 pm

I appreciate your insights, being a retired police officer. I didn't want to imply that cops are bad folks, and I hesitated before posting, but when people are around authority they tend to become corrupted. They see too much I guess, and have to deal with the grim realities of the world too long... its got to become overwhelming. Combine that worldview with the authority to detain and use force, and you have a dangerous situation.

Which is why authority is checked and balanced.
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#27 Postby sunny » Mon Oct 10, 2005 3:40 pm

Like I've said - I am not defending these actions, if they are in fact police brutality. Hopefully the following article will provide some insight into what the cops on the NOPD have been through.

wwltv.com


N.O. Police under tremendous stress following Katrina

02:57 PM CDT on Monday, October 10, 2005


Mary Foster / Associated Press

Their homes are gone, their families scattered, their reputations sliding by the day.


Home for most New Orleans police officers is a cramped cruise ship, and work is 12- to 14-hour days in a wrecked city. When time off does come along, there is nowhere to go and no one to spend it with.

Experts say the personal and professional upheaval is catching up with the New Orleans police force in the form of desertions, suicides, corruption and perhaps even the videotaped beating over the weekend of an allegedly drunken man on Bourbon Street.

"This is unprecedented in our country," said Dr. Howard Osofsky, chairman of psychiatry at the LSU Medical School Health Sciences Department. "There is no disaster that has had the amount of trauma for a department that this has, where so many police officers have lost homes, been separated from their families, had loved ones living in other places with no idea when they'll return."

Not even the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11 have matched the strain produced by the hurricane and its ensuing rescues, evacuations and searches for the living and dead, said Osofsky, who is working with New Orleans officers and their families.

"The 9-11 attacks were very different," he said. "Following 9-11 there was a known enemy, a known situation. And even though the two buildings were destroyed and lives lost, the people who survived could go to their homes. The city of New York was not destroyed, the country around it was not destroyed."

Like about 80 percent of the New Orleans force, 46-year-old Ronald Gillard, a 15-year veteran, lost his house to the storm. But when the winds died down, he was back at work.

"We went to the flooded areas and just started rescuing people," he said. "We worked as long as we could, then I slept on the floor in a hotel lobby. We were eating cold food out of cans we found."

Gillard called the cruise ship housing a lifesaver, even though police are usually two to a room. "If it wasn't for that, being able to eat a hot meal, having a place to stay, I think I would have lost my mind," he said.

The ship also allows his wife and 10-year-old son, now living in Houston, to visit on weekends. But the scattering of families is another stress factor. Officer Melody Young, whose husband and son are also New Orleans officers, said she cries a lot these days. Her daughter is spending her senior year with Young's sister in Mississippi. Her father is in intensive care in a Mississippi hospital.

"I pray a lot," she said.

When Katrina passed, the department found itself without communications, with officers cut off from each other and headquarters. Lawlessness spread through the city. Rescue workers reported being shot at. Police Superintendent Eddie Compass publicly repeated allegations -- later debunked -- that people were being beaten and babies raped at the convention center.

At least two officers took their own lives in Katrina's aftermath. Compass resigned last month. At the same time, the 1,450-member department said it was investigating nearly 250 officers accused of leaving their posts and 12 suspected of looting or condoning looting. Authorities are also looking into allegations officers took nearly 200 cars from a Cadillac dealership during the storm.

On Saturday night, a 64-year-old man was repeatedly punched by officers as four men dragged him to the ground. Another officer then attacked an Associated Press Television News producer who helped capture the arrest on tape.

"I've been here for six weeks trying to keep ... alive. ... Go home!" shouted the officer, who identified himself as S.M. Smith.

Three officers were suspended without pay, charged with battery and pleaded not guilty Monday. The U.S. Justice Department opened a civil rights investigation Monday.

"I'm sick of it," Young said. "It turns my stomach. There is so much more going on with our department."

Well before Katrina, New Orleans' police department had a reputation for corruption and brutality.

Former Police Superintendent Richard Pennington, now Atlanta's chief, is widely credited with cleaning up the department, purging it of scores of bad cops during the 1990s -- a decade when police were arrested for crimes ranging from shoplifting and bribery to bank robbery, drug dealing and rape.

Perhaps the worst came in the mid-1990s, when two cops were convicted of murder. Both are on death row. One was found guilty of arranging the 1994 murder of a woman who had filed a complaint against him. Another was convicted of triple murder in a restaurant holdup she orchestrated in 1995. Brutality complaints surfaced again earlier this year. In March, black revelers at a St. Joseph's Day celebration were allegedly roughed up by police. City officials said the group had grown too large and lacked proper permits for the event.

At least one police watchdog seems willing to give exhausted and stressed-out officers the benefit of the doubt.

"We're 10 years removed from being the most notorious police department in the United States," said Rafael Goyeneche, executive director of the Metropolitan Crime Commission of Greater New Orleans. "So people will assume this is just a continuation of that. But I don't think it is."

Saturday's beating may be linked to "the seven weeks of hell they've been through," Goyeneche said. "It doesn't condone it, but it may explain it."

"Here are officers crossing the line and quickly being jerked back," he said. "That sends a very clear message. That's very good."

Most New Orleans officers have worked hard, ignored their personal problems, and lived up to their oaths to protect and serve, said police spokesman Marlon Defillo.

"We have approximately 1,450 commissioned persons who are working under some very adverse conditions," Defillo said. "It's a tribute to those officers who are working very hard to do the right thing."

(Copyright 2005 by The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved.)
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#28 Postby streetsoldier » Mon Oct 10, 2005 5:18 pm

kevin wrote:I appreciate your insights, being a retired police officer. I didn't want to imply that cops are bad folks, and I hesitated before posting, but when people are around authority they tend to become corrupted. They see too much I guess, and have to deal with the grim realities of the world too long... its got to become overwhelming. Combine that worldview with the authority to detain and use force, and you have a dangerous situation.

Which is why authority is checked and balanced.


What you don't know is that, although an officer HAS "authority", it is secondary to the awesome RESPONSIBILITY of having it. This was always on my mind, kevin...and I dare say some other officers here will verify that tenet.

Not all of us became either "animals" or "machines".
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#29 Postby Windy » Tue Oct 11, 2005 12:56 pm

The plot thickens!


NEW ORLEANS - A retired elementary teacher who was repeatedly punched in the head by police in an incident caught on videotape said Monday he was not drunk, put up no resistance and was baffled by what happened.
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Robert Davis said he had returned to New Orleans to check on property his family owns in the storm-ravaged city, and was out looking to buy cigarettes when he was beaten and arrested Saturday night in the French Quarter.

Police have alleged that the 64-year-old Davis was publicly intoxicated, a charge he strongly denied as he stood on the street corner where the incident played out Saturday.

"I haven't had a drink in 25 years," Davis said. He had stitches beneath his left eye, a bandage on his left hand and complained of soreness in his back and aches in his left shoulder.


The article also mentions that nobody -- including him and his lawyer -- think that this was a racial thing, although the Feds are now investigating it as a civil rights case.
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#30 Postby chadtm80 » Tue Oct 11, 2005 2:42 pm

He wasn't doing Nothing? Gee.. Why do I not buy that?
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#31 Postby j » Tue Oct 11, 2005 4:24 pm

Lindaloo wrote:Why weren't you just as outraged when the black police officers were looting and stealing from people? Allowing black people to rob people and steal cars?

It is always the black man being beaten by the white cops caught on tape. Go figure!! :roll:

If any of you have ever been to Bourbon Street then you well know how those intoxicated drunks can get down there.

I am sick of this crap!


The victim claims he hadn't had a drink in 25 years, but for some unknown reason, couldn't figure out where to buy a pack of cigarettes. Hmmmmmmm.
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#32 Postby f5 » Tue Oct 11, 2005 4:40 pm

was the guy on the horse suspended beacuse he tried to keep a crime from being taped?
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#33 Postby Windy » Tue Oct 11, 2005 5:42 pm

chadtm80 wrote:He wasn't doing Nothing? Gee.. Why do I not buy that?


Because you ascribe guilt to some people before any of the facts are known to anybody? Hey, they were beating him, he must have done something wrong... right? Good thing our courts don't work that way. Hey, maybe he was drunk, I really don't know. Normally I presume that police are doing the job that they need to do, too. But when you see such convincing evidence of particular police officers doing what they're not supposed to do, it does make you wonder if they started the whole thing for the right reasons.

So what did the reporter do to deserve getting thrown onto a car and punched in the stomach?

j wrote:
The victim claims he hadn't had a drink in 25 years, but for some unknown reason, couldn't figure out where to buy a pack of cigarettes. Hmmmmmmm.


Well, in New Orleans right now, it's hard to figure out where to buy FOOD in some areas, so I can imagine that figuring out where to buy cigarettes might be more challenging than usual.
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#34 Postby O Town » Tue Oct 11, 2005 6:23 pm

Has anyone heard any more of the facts in this story? Everyone keeps saying everyone is jumping conclusions, without knowing the facts, but what are the facts? If anyone has a link to updated news please post it. I just don't think they would have picked this guy out of a crowd for no apparent reason and beat him, but who knows. Maybe he wasn't doing nothing too much wrong that night, but maybe he is known in that area to cause problems, then they would have jumped him a little sooner than say with someone else doing the same who the police have never seen before. There has to be something it would seem. I want to know though. We may really know what happened. I don't like seeing no one get beat any more than the next guy. I just want to hear a little more about this story before I make anymore comments.
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#35 Postby chadtm80 » Tue Oct 11, 2005 8:06 pm

Windy wrote:
chadtm80 wrote:He wasn't doing Nothing? Gee.. Why do I not buy that?


Because you ascribe guilt to some people before any of the facts are known to anybody? Hey, they were beating him, he must have done something wrong... right? Good thing our courts don't work that way. Hey, maybe he was drunk, I really don't know. Normally I presume that police are doing the job that they need to do, too. But when you see such convincing evidence of particular police officers doing what they're not supposed to do, it does make you wonder if they started the whole thing for the right reasons.

So what did the reporter do to deserve getting thrown onto a car and punched in the stomach?


j wrote:
The victim claims he hadn't had a drink in 25 years, but for some unknown reason, couldn't figure out where to buy a pack of cigarettes. Hmmmmmmm.


Well, in New Orleans right now, it's hard to figure out where to buy FOOD in some areas, so I can imagine that figuring out where to buy cigarettes might be more challenging than usual.


Get your panties out of a wad there windy ;-) I didn't say the cops where right or the victim where right.. I just do not think the guy was just walking down the street minding his own buisness and the cops just closed there eyes and pointed and said that is the guys we will beat for no reason. Maybe not jump down my throat next time.. You hurt my feelings!! I will be off pouting in the corner now

P.S. J/k on the hurt feelings :lol:
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#36 Postby JQ Public » Tue Oct 11, 2005 9:31 pm

hmmm touchy subject. Don't really know what the black man did but the video tape doesn't hide the officers overreaction.
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#37 Postby Windy » Tue Oct 11, 2005 10:08 pm

Lol -- sorry about that, Chad! I know I learned my lesson to never internet when I'm having a crummy day, but for some reason I keep forgetting it. :D

(edit -- just reread what I wrote earlier -- by "you're" I meant ME, not you! LOL! I can't win! :lol:)
Last edited by Windy on Wed Oct 12, 2005 12:40 am, edited 2 times in total.
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#38 Postby Brent » Wed Oct 12, 2005 12:05 am

I am SO not touching this one.

Nope... :lol: :P
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#39 Postby CentralFlGal » Wed Oct 12, 2005 3:57 am

Video doesn't show the very beginning. Man is whirlled around and punched in the head before the horse moves in front of the camera. Looking at it from a logical perspective, there is a good chunk of time missing from the episode. Too many officers, civilians and camera crews are already on scene for this to be a "hurry up and get the camera!" case. I have to agree with Chad because this seems too weird to be a "you're it" scenario.

How did the off-camera newsman draw the ire of one of the officers' so badly? The cynic in me wants to know if they are heckling or making matters worse for better ratings. Or is the media paying folks to push buttons? I dunno... but the newsman was smirking after the encounter.

I have too many unanswered questions and I'm very wary of the media's motives during disasters, but the beating is still way too severe in my eyes.
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#40 Postby kevin » Wed Oct 12, 2005 10:14 am

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.


If congress can't make any law denying the freedom of the press, then enforcers of the law can in no way deny the freedom of the press. While it happens in the name of security and dignity, it is nevertheless unconstitutional and if people don't like it when the press records these things, and they dare to attack a person recording these things : they can find another country with another constitution.
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