NWS Mobile report on Katrina: Cat-4 140mph La landfall

[MGC]

Very interesting read.


http://www.srh.noaa.gov/mob/0805Katrina/


920mb at landfall in La, Cat-3 at Mississippi landfall. Please note the radar estimated winds were well inland in Pearl River County, winds along the coast must have been higher.....MGC

[Brent]

Very interesting read.


http://www.srh.noaa.gov/mob/0805Katrina/


920mb at landfall in La, Cat-3 at Mississippi landfall......MGC

They are just going by the NHC advisories which said 140 mph in LA... nothing new.

[artist]

Wow! Seems they are saying the surge was alot lower than info I had been hearing.

[Derek Ortt]

I believe that is an operational report

those surge heights are for Alabama

However, I do not believe that the actual tidal surge was over 30 feet in Mississippi. That was the maximum water height, which includes waves and surge

[artist]

thanks for clearing that up Derek!

[Droop12]

How high do you believe the surge was Derek? If you say 30ft at most does that mean you believe there was about a 15-20ft water rise with about 10ft waves on top? Im not to sure but I have seen plenty of surge video lately from various storms including great video from Mike Theiss and I dont see how there are large waves on top of the surge. To me it looks like the water just comes up slowly until it reaches its maximum, I dont see much evidence of large battering waves on top of the surge, I could be wrong though. According to Mike, the hotel in Gulfport he was at was 17ft above sea level and the water clearly is up to and over the second floor of the hotel he is at. That leaves me to believe the water rise was near 30 ft there. I didnt see any waves on top of it, just streaks of wind blowing over it. I believe it doesnt take waves to destroy structures inundated by the surge, just the sheer force and weight of the water, plus the currents probably associated with it are enough to rip homes off there foundation. This is just my take on this, I could be wrong.

[MGC]

Absolutly dead wrong on the surge. I witnessed a debris line in Diamonhead on Bayou Drive that nearly came to the top of the hill my house is on. I'm 35 feet above sea level.......MGC

[Ixolib]

I believe that is an operational report

those surge heights are for Alabama

However, I do not believe that the actual tidal surge was over 30 feet in Mississippi. That was the maximum water height, which includes waves and surge

Then you need to bring your survey equipment and a 35 foot measuring tape on up here to the MS Coast and PERSONALLY take the measurements yourself. Firsthand experience will offer you contrary evidence as there are many straight-line water marks (not wave marks) that would present an easy argument to your "belief").

With a GPS, sitting in my driveway in my Jeep Liberty (now totaled), I get a reading of 30.1 feet above MSL. Here's pic of my front yard during Katrina - and the water had not yet risen to its max! Note the "absence" of waves (front yard faces north, hence - no waves). The surge here is about 3 feet up our pecan tree which is right next to the driveway. At this level, it's probably just a tad above the antenna for the GPS receiver. BTW... The car in the background had just begun to float (which is why I snapped this particular pic). It was 90 degrees in a parellel position only moments before this pic was taken.



And don't forget, I'm in Biloxi, quite far east from areas like Waveland and The Pass which took a much higher surge. Plus, for anyone on the beach, they had "waves" on top of that!! If the water depth was not greater than 30 feet, how did the President Casino end up on TOP of the Holiday Inn - and reportedly further inland than that before the water began to receed? How did Grand Biloxi float off its morings and end up on TOP of the Biloxi Yacht Club?

And here's a few more, including a couple of shots I took from my kitchen door, looking at my neighbor's driveway that's at about the same altitude as mine. Also note the same two cars that are "floating" on the street corner - only a few feet from my driveway!!



And finally, the President Casino - atop the now-crushed two-story Holiday Inn...

[TSmith274]

Yeah I hate to step on toes here because I know this is a sensitive topic around here. But I can tell you for a fact that houses on 20 ft pilings flooded in Plaquemines Parish. Was this all surge, or waves on top of surge? That's beyond my knowlege, that's for sure.

edit: Ixolib, damn those are some great pictures. An excellent illustration beyond refute.

[Ixolib]

Yeah I hate to step on toes here because I know this is a sensitive topic around here. But I can tell you for a fact that houses on 20 ft pilings flooded in Plaquemines Parish. Was this all surge, or waves on top of surge? That's beyond my knowlege, that's for sure.

edit: Ixolib, damn those are some great pictures. An excellent illustration beyond refute.

Thanks. In the "beginning", taking pictures was a hoot. Very soon thereafter, I had other things on my mind.

As for the issue in Plaquemines, if there's a straight-line water mark, then that tells the tale. And Plaquemines is just "west" of the landfalling eye, right?? If so, think about what was going on just "east" of it!!

[Droop12]

I agree with MGC and Ixolib on this subject. Water levels rose to near 35ft at max probably. And Ixolib, how strong were the winds in Biloxi? It doesnt seem to breezy in your pics. I was in Biloxi the 4th of July weekend this year and the year before and I loved it. Its so sad to see the massive destruction, I was looking forward to going back as soon as possible. I stayed at the Grand Casino Biloxi, I couldnt believe all the damage I saw. Good luck to all of you folks in MS.

[TSmith274]

Yeah I hate to step on toes here because I know this is a sensitive topic around here. But I can tell you for a fact that houses on 20 ft pilings flooded in Plaquemines Parish. Was this all surge, or waves on top of surge? That's beyond my knowlege, that's for sure.

edit: Ixolib, damn those are some great pictures. An excellent illustration beyond refute.

Thanks. In the "beginning", taking pictures was a hoot. Very soon thereafter, I had other things on my mind.

As for the issue in Plaquemines, if there's a straight-line water mark, then that tells the tale. And Plaquemines is just "west" of the landfalling eye, right?? If so, think about what was going on just "east" of it!!

Ixolib, good question about the landfall. Katrina made her lanfall in the town of Buras, La. But there were towns in the right front quadrant.... Triumph...My fishing camp was in Triumph before Katrina.LOL(hey gotta find some humor in bad luck), Fort Jackson, Boothville, and Venice, La. All of these were in the east side, and for all purposes, they're gone now.

I haven't been able to get down there to check waterlines. They haven't let residents in yet... 5 weeks after. Looking forward to it though. I WILL take pictures and share them on here.
Good luck rebuilding. Looks like you've got some great help!

[f5]

I believe that is an operational report

those surge heights are for Alabama

However, I do not believe that the actual tidal surge was over 30 feet in Mississippi. That was the maximum water height, which includes waves and surge

why is that that you like to downplay everything? also ask the Camille survivors who's surge was higher.also bring out your professional measuring equipment before believing something

[Ixolib]

Looks like you've got some great help!

Great observation... You're right!!!

And as with any other disaster that has ever hit anywhere, all things will be okay in due time. Sorry about your camp - I love that area down there. But no worries, the specks and reds will still be around when you get things back up and running!!

[Frank P]

I believe that is an operational report

those surge heights are for Alabama

However, I do not believe that the actual tidal surge was over 30 feet in Mississippi. That was the maximum water height, which includes waves and surge

If that is the case Derek how do you explain the debris marks that are 14-15 feet up in my pecan tree, which has been surveyed to be 35 feet above sea level (my house is 20 foot above sea level)... I think the wave heights along with the surge were at least in the 33-35 foot range, that's what the hard physical evidence is pointing to at my neighborhood... evidence from the east end of Biloxi shows that the surge was in the 27-28 foot range alone, excluding waves... my aunts house got about 1 foot of water in it from Camille, I know because I was there, that was a 22 foot storm surge in 69... Katrina's surge was 7 feet into the house, 6 feet higher... so the east end of Biloxi, at least in the center section of Point Cadet they had a 28 foot surge....

Now if you figure that you had a 28 foot surge measured at the end of Biloxi inland... you would expect at least the same on the front beach 7 miles to the west, if not more... so if you're saying it was a 30 foot surge with waves then you're saying all I got was two foot waves with the surge..

I'm looking at the physical evidence that I see first hand... I'm a professional safety engineer and have done accident and incident investigations all my career... I find it hard to believe that the max water level with Katrina was 30 feet including waves.... based on the physical evidence I've seen... my professional opinion is that the surge was at least 28 feet with 5-7 feet of wave action on top of the surge....

Bottom line, I guess it really doesn't matter if it was 30 feet or 35 feet of water... it doesn’t diminish the amount of damage that has decimated the MS gulf coast...

[dhweather]

This building in Pass Christian is about 10 feet above MSL.

Note the Palm Tree in the foreground snapped off? Would a minimal
cat 3 do that?

Note the bottom two floors of the building were GUTTED. Water got into
the third floor, so that's easily 30 feet above MSL.

I find it hard to believe that, particularly after the WMD fiasco in Iraq,
that anyone would take satellite/radar readings as the gospel for
accurate measurements.


<img src="http://www.datasync.com/~magee/pc.jpg">

[Steve]

Don't know how high the surge+waves was in Mississippi, but I can tell you that on Dauphin Island (the east end protected by barrier island Sand Island), it takes 11' to get water into the parking lot of the condo I'm living in. Well the water actually got 3-4' into the condos, so the surge here was a minimum of 15'. We're pretty far removed from both landfalls.

Whatever Katrina was or wasn't, the damage is easily Cat-4/Cat-5. Maybe this is a factor of how strong she was and how large she was even prior to Landfall #1 in Louisiana.

Steve

[Derek Ortt]

what happens a lot of times, at least in passed hurricanes is that the initial surge reports are overstated. People were reporting a much higher surge in Ivan last year of over 20 feet. The post analysis showed about 15 for the surge, with VERY HIGH WAVES on top of it. I expect that the final surge will be 20-25 feet, with waves of about 20 feet.

The tidal surge height is only the very low water rise, even though the overall rises in addition to the waves are far far higher

[dhweather]

We still have pictures from Iloxib's house, I've seen the Mississippi Storm
Magnet's house - the same story - very little in waves, lots of water.
MSM had right at 8 feet in his house.

Here's some pictures from Biloxi - the surge on the house, the water
receding, and the home after the hurricane. The waves are not very large.

<img src="http://www.datasync.com/~magee/house2.jpg">
<img src="http://www.datasync.com/~magee/house3.jpg">

<img src="http://www.datasync.com/~magee/house1.jpg">

[f5]

what happens a lot of times, at least in passed hurricanes is that the initial surge reports are overstated. People were reporting a much higher surge in Ivan last year of over 20 feet. The post analysis showed about 15 for the surge, with VERY HIGH WAVES on top of it. I expect that the final surge will be 20-25 feet, with waves of about 20 feet.

The tidal surge height is only the very low water rise, even though the overall rises in addition to the waves are far far higher

are you saying Camille's was higher?Everyone in that area says Katrina's was higher why well this building did get surge from camille but from Katrina..I went back and read your forecast archive on rita you underestimated her strength the whole 9 yard at first you had her as a weak CAT 3 with zero chance of becoming a CAT 5 in the gom i had a strong feeling she was going to be a 175 mph CAT 5.same thing with the storm surge it was underestimated everyhting was thrown back to the railroad tracks Camille's didn't do that by reading your post you probably think Camille's is higher