Do You Want Senate Bill 786 To Be Passed?

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Do You Want Senate Bill 786 to be passed?

Yes I Do.
11
6%
No I dont.
137
77%
What is Senate Bill 786?
31
17%
 
Total votes: 179

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TrekkerCC
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#21 Postby TrekkerCC » Fri Sep 23, 2005 5:05 am

mikemiller18 wrote:That's a very fatalist point of view. The problem is, everyone is paying tax dollars for a service they might not want. This is a representative government, not a socialist one. If NHC asked for donations, I would gladly reach out of my pocket to donate. With the demand of weather forecasting, I highly doubt it would be an outrageous price. Not to mention there are other ways for corporations to make a profit besides subscriptions. Websites are a good example of this.


I know that there is a no politics rule in talkin tropics, but I hope the moderators will indulge me.

I respectfully disagree with this argument. We do have a representative government. To pay for government functions including the provision of vital functions, taxes need to be paid. I may not enjoy the fact that much of my taxes go to defense spending, but I recognize it is a priority of the government. Tax paying is a citizens' burden in order to support the functions of a government. Weather prediction is a vital function in support of citizens' public safety, and public safety is a traditional role for any government (from ancient past to present). It is not a socialist function if the government is providing a service that has been traditionally taken on by the State.

The main arguments for keeping the data public:

1) To keep the agency transparent. As this is a government agency, we need to make sure the agency still works for the welfare of all citizens. As a check, the public data (including data used for prediction, data collection and analysis) are public to make sure that the government agency is doing its job. I am sure the agency needs to make temperature and weather condition predictions (to forecast snow or heat waves), why should this information be withheld from the public? We are supporting the agency with our money. We should make sure it provides the level of service we want, including all data now released to the public.

2) Data which can be used for scientific discovery needs to be preserved. Data that the NWS generates helps universities, labs, and colleges (places of scientific discovery) to advance the body of knowledge. First, it allows places of scientific discovery to replicate the methods used by (NWS) in predicting the weather, and it also allows the universities to use the data (collected and analyzed by NWS) for future experiments. Cutting the data off from the public would hurt these institutions, who would have to contract out to private companies for data that the public agency is collecting anyway. Also, it is hurtful to a public citizen to use the data that he has helped pay for.

Also, the private sector is free to compete with the National Weather Service for the provision of weather services. Seeing a number of threads about AccuWeather swiping the National Weather Service bears out this fact. Private companies can choose to send up their own satellites and develop their own radar systems -- making those systems proprietary. They can develop their own techniques of data collection and analyzing, and keep those methods private. While, it takes time to raise the capital and build up the infrastructure, a private weather company can do this if they wish. I do note that AccuWeather and other weather services seem to have no problem taking public data, and then using it for commercial purposes. If the private company really wants to compete, do it better than the other guys. That is how you gain loyal customers. Not whining about how unfair it is. This situation would be the same as if a Walmart came into town. No matter how "unfair" it is to local competition, the local competition has to compete to survive. Private weather companies do exist (already knowing there is a public competitor) and prosper, I figure that the private companies are well aware of the NWS. Yet, they still compete, (and well if you can give political contributions to politicians -- they must be doing well), and turn a profit.

[Edited: To Correct Grammar]
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#22 Postby bvigal » Fri Sep 23, 2005 7:39 am

trekker, some really good points! I've been following this for over 6 months now. It's very simple.

NOAA would not go away, but would continue to collect all the data they do, and disseminate it to government, universities, and commercial services, via the internet. Taxpayers will still pay for all that.

The non-competition clause would force NOAA, and universities, to make all their websites UNAVAILABLE to the public. This would save taxpayers almost nothing.

Meanwhile, the commercial interests, like Accuweather, Wunderground, TWC, etc., would then be our internet source for satellite, models, radar, surface, winds, temperatures - everything except watches and warnings. We will again pay for that data in the form of either subscriptions and/or advertising.

NO, NO, NO!!! :x

See this site to help you message your Senators, Congressman your feelings: http://capwiz.com/nwseo/mail/oneclick_c ... id=7545801
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#23 Postby brunota2003 » Fri Sep 23, 2005 9:37 pm

bump from page two...
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#24 Postby brunota2003 » Fri Sep 23, 2005 10:45 pm

hey, im no longer a piece of dust in a tropical wave, im now a Tropical Low, 100 posts!!! Im so happy... lol
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#25 Postby TexasStooge » Fri Sep 23, 2005 10:48 pm

2 words:

HHHHHEEEEEEECCCCKKKK NNNNOOOOO!!!!!!!!

I don't wanna Pay-Per-Innacuate Forecast, San-DORK-um.
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#26 Postby TexasStooge » Sat Sep 24, 2005 12:42 pm

Yeah, that's right. I said "San-DORK-um".
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#27 Postby Stephanie » Sat Sep 24, 2005 12:52 pm

I think that Katrina and Rita just proved "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." Santorum's bill is only for political gain, which seems to be the norm everywhere you go these days. Something like that occurring never guarantees that you'll get "better service". NWS/NHC are funded by the public and one private organization should not be allowed to be a sole beneficiary of it.

The NHC and NWS did an EXCELLENT job with these hurricanes and in their forecasts in general. 'Nuff said.
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#28 Postby ronjon » Sat Sep 24, 2005 1:22 pm

Hey everybody it's the post-Katrina world. I think after what's happened this year, the private forecasting bill is dead in the water (ouch). The NHC this year has done a fine job with the exception of missing the SW turn of Katrina after the Florida landfall and misses with the Big "O" due to the week steering currents. They nailed Katrina's second landfall (contrary to some media reports), they nailed Dennis' July landfall 72 hrs out, and looks to me they had Rita's landfall pretty darn close. Unfortunately, due to 24/7 news cable, the hype just keeps getting worse & worse with each storm. We do need to increase our funding in the NHC and hurricane research because like it or not, we're gonna be in the period of increased activity and stronger storms for at least the next 10-20 years. We also need to rethink evacuation to make it smarter and less conjested. For one, lets tell people to ABSOLUTELY STAY AT HOME if not in a tidal flood zone. Unless the winds are CAT 5 force, most structures will do fine in the face of wind damage. People are much better off staying at home rather than facing the danger of getting in their cars and getting trapped on some highway in traffic.
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#29 Postby WeatherEmperor » Sat Sep 24, 2005 1:27 pm

Stephanie wrote:I think that Katrina and Rita just proved "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." Santorum's bill is only for political gain, which seems to be the norm everywhere you go these days. Something like that occurring never guarantees that you'll get "better service". NWS/NHC are funded by the public and one private organization should not be allowed to be a sole beneficiary of it.

The NHC and NWS did an EXCELLENT job with these hurricanes and in their forecasts in general. 'Nuff said.


Bravo to that! :D

The private sector thinks they have a right to compete with anything they want. What they fail to realize is that the "weather" is not a competition sport. Weather disasters are a life/death situations.

<RICKY>
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#30 Postby HurryKane » Sat Sep 24, 2005 1:33 pm

ronjon wrote: For one, lets tell people to ABSOLUTELY STAY AT HOME if not in a tidal flood zone. Unless the winds are CAT 5 force, most structures will do fine in the face of wind damage. People are much better off staying at home rather than facing the danger of getting in their cars and getting trapped on some highway in traffic.


I would have to disagree with telling people who are not in a flood zone to stick around, due to the number of homes I've seen that had no flood from Katrina but were smashed to smithereens by trees...or had their roofs ripped off by winds.

I am not in a flood zone, left for Katrina, and was told by another friend (also not in a flood zone) who stayed that she wished to God she hadn't. I was evac'ed for two weeks and had a comfortable living situation, while she did not--no power, water, and a leaking, tree-damaged home. She actually begged me to stay away as long as possible.

While riding out an extremely destructive storm itself is horrible and sometimes deadly, it's often the period of time afterwards that can be the most unbearable because it may be a prolonged period of time without food, water, electricity, and other basic needs/services. I say get out beforehand.
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#31 Postby DAVE440 » Sat Sep 24, 2005 4:16 pm

All I gotta say is.....My tax dollars helped pay for those satellites, radar systems and hurricane hunter planes....and I'll be damned if some private corporation is going to get weather data from instrumentation I helped pay for ....then not allow me to see the data....without PAYIN FOR IT AGAIN!

NO WAY JOSE' !! One more thing #&*%(#^&Q$#& :grr:
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#32 Postby bvigal » Sat Sep 24, 2005 4:21 pm

DAVE440 wrote:All I gotta say is.....My tax dollars helped pay for those satellites, radar systems and hurricane hunter planes....and I'll be damned if some private corporation is going to get weather data from instrumentation I helped pay for ....then not allow me to see the data....without PAYIN FOR IT AGAIN!

Amen to that!!!! :clap:
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#33 Postby WeatherEmperor » Sat Sep 24, 2005 4:35 pm

The private sector and moreso accuweather should be boo'd for this big time.

<RICKY>
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#34 Postby tndefender » Sat Sep 24, 2005 4:55 pm

I posted this in another topic but it really fits here.

"Imagine if Federal Express were to decide it could no longer compete against the U.S. Postal Service and sought legislation to prevent the mailman from delivering packages. Better yet, imagine if Federal Express had emerged only as a result of the federal government stepping in and telling those bullies at the Post Office to stop delivering packages. Absurd, correct? FedEx became a free-market success story not by seeking special favors, but by beating the government at its own game. By contrast, AccuWeather (which happens to reside in Santorum's home state of Pennsylvania) would like you to know that it exists only because NWS has, over the past half-century, pursued a "non-competition" policy with the private sector, the idiocy of which apparently only occurred to NWS this past December, when it revoked that policy. The earlier non-competition policy, says an AccuWeather press release, "led to the development of specialized weather services" like, well, AccuWeather. The company became a success story only because the federal government built it a special incubator."

Read the rest of Timothy Noah's article in Slate:

http://slate.msn.com/id/2123557/fr/rss/
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#35 Postby Andrew92 » Sat Sep 24, 2005 5:03 pm

Actually, I have an idea for 2006:

Let's send a bill to a Senator of wherever (meaning which state) the National Weather Service headquarters are located, and propose a new Bill 786 for that year. And it would revise the duties of the private sectors, such as Inaccuweather. They would especially, from there on out if it passed, be required to not make people have to pay for their weather discussions or forecasts.

-Andrew92
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#36 Postby Stephanie » Sun Sep 25, 2005 11:27 am

That article made some excellent points tn!!

DAVE440 - how do you REALLY feel? :lol: I could agree more though!
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#37 Postby artist » Sun Sep 25, 2005 11:35 am

mikemiller - what you are failing to realize is that to be able to issue warnings the NWS and NHC have to remain staffed full time to be able to watch patterns, etc. Our tax dollars would still be going there - they just would not be able to give us the info. they will be giving the private co.'s that info and then take that daily info and charge us to receive it! Now does that make sense?
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#38 Postby Recurve » Sun Sep 25, 2005 11:46 am

I vote no. No change, except increased funding for research and operations -- and another Gulfstream IV.

NOAA's public dissemination of data is exemplary. Of course it makes it hard for private companies to compete, but that's their problem. I'm a die-hard capitalist, but not in the sense of jiggering existing conditions to generate business for private companies. This is akin to preventing any government agency from producing any PR or public data release, because the media companies could do it.

(offtopic)I'm also against killing public broadcasting at a time when we need more information and access, not less.

Please voice your opposition to this bill, and support increased NOAA/TPC/NHC funding.
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#39 Postby Dr. Jonah Rainwater » Sun Sep 25, 2005 12:36 pm

No.

At the basic root of the social contract, the Government's sole purpose is to protect its' citizens and give them the security that society must provide. That's why even small-government Republicans support lots of spending on national defense. It's one of the main reasons for government's existence. In my opinion, defending against natural disasters and any other sort of threat to our security and safety is considered national defense. Should we be privatizing the US military so we can have competing, steamlined military forces that work against each other in the hope of being recognized for the "best" job? That's what competition would do in this sort of case. There's also no real reason for private companies to be more motivated than the NWS. At the NWS, it's not about money, it's about an even more important reward - saving lives.
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#40 Postby WindRunner » Sun Sep 25, 2005 12:52 pm

I looked here to see how dumb of a poll this was, knowing that there would be a 0% "yes" number, yet somehow 10 people have voted to essentially eliminate NOAA. It's these people that make you wonder about what the world is coming to . . .
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