Invest 97L,Comments,Sat Pics,Models Thread

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BensonTCwatcher
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#261 Postby BensonTCwatcher » Mon Aug 22, 2005 12:00 pm

The following post is NOT an official forecast and should not be used as such. It is just the opinion of the poster and may or may not be backed by sound meteorological data. It is NOT endorsed by any professional institution including storm2k.org For Official Information please refer to the NHC and NWS products.

Here is my take for the record, and for the next 36 hours:

I think that just like Irene, this system will battle dry ( did not say SAL :roll: ) air as it moves across the Atlantic. The reason Irene is a decent analog is that both waves started strong and have a large area LLC. This will allow the LLC to survive through shear and dry air. Furthermore, it will likely stay underdeveloped and thus the models will not accurately predict the westward movement caused by low level westerly flow.

Since the pattern and climo are just evolving from pattern we saw in July, i.e. SAL, dry air and LLC's all over the place, I have low confidence in predicting strength at this phase other than if it gets further N it dissipates and if it stays W it holds and later strengthens. The 40W longitude seems about right as a "gate" that if the overall relative motion of W continues past 40W, it will be much more likely to strengthen. As it strengthens it will begin to be influenced by the mid-upper steering levels and Atlantic ridging and the models should be fairly useful in determining whether this re-curves.

In summary, my best guess is that it will survive past 40W at times looking dis-organized then stronger and back again. 36 hours is all it should take to determine the fate. Since nobody likes a 50'50 call ( no commitment) I'll say 55/45 this is TS on or about 36 hours.
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#262 Postby Sanibel » Mon Aug 22, 2005 12:22 pm

I believe Sharan Air Layer is correct terminology for the dry airmass over the Central Atlantic. I think some are upset because they are associating African Dust with the SAL, however, the SAL can be just dry air with low dust content and originate from the Sahara.


If I am reading conditions correctly, the Atlantic has become less supporting of storms since Irene. In this case 97L would have less likelihood of regeneration...
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Derek Ortt

#263 Postby Derek Ortt » Mon Aug 22, 2005 12:23 pm

the Saharan Air Layer is the dry air originating from the Saharan Desert.

The current dry air is mid-latitude in origin, and in no way associated with the SAL
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#264 Postby Frank2 » Mon Aug 22, 2005 12:41 pm

I was very surprised to hear that the RH at the mid-levels of SAL areas can be as low as 20% - it's no wonder that the convection dissipates!

Frank
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#265 Postby WeatherEmperor » Mon Aug 22, 2005 12:47 pm

Derek Ortt wrote:the Saharan Air Layer is the dry air originating from the Saharan Desert.

The current dry air is mid-latitude in origin, and in no way associated with the SAL


Thanks for clearing that up Derek. Hopefully that will end the SAL this SAL that issue.

<RICKY>
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#266 Postby Sanibel » Mon Aug 22, 2005 12:52 pm

Probably right since there's a band of moisture separating the Sahara from the Central Atlantic right now. I won't bother to speculate that it was originally from the Sahara and maintained under Atlantic subsidence, since there is almost certainly no way to prove it...
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#267 Postby ConvergenceZone » Mon Aug 22, 2005 1:07 pm

Perhaps Sanibel is right. Maybe there is too much SAL and dry air this year for the Eastern Atlantic. Our only hope may lay in Carib storms. I mean face it, we are quickly approaching September.

I'm not writing off the year, but may have to write off any Eastern Atlantic storms based on the conditions(which don't seem to be improving)


Matt, good call on this wave so far...
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#268 Postby clfenwi » Mon Aug 22, 2005 1:12 pm

SSD's estimate

22/1730 UTC 17.0N 32.6W TOO WEAK 97 -- Atlantic Ocean

Looking at a loop of GOES 12 images from the NRL site, it looks to me like the center is still more near 16° than 17° . Either way, it is still pretty disorganized.
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#269 Postby WeatherEmperor » Mon Aug 22, 2005 1:14 pm

clfenwi wrote:SSD's estimate

22/1730 UTC 17.0N 32.6W TOO WEAK 97 -- Atlantic Ocean

Looking at a loop of GOES 12 images from the NRL site, it looks to me like the center is still more near 16° than 17° . Either way, it is still pretty disorganized.


could this thing be on its way to death? Cause its looking slightly worse by the hour.

<RICKY>
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#270 Postby clfenwi » Mon Aug 22, 2005 1:21 pm

WeatherEmperor wrote:
clfenwi wrote:SSD's estimate

22/1730 UTC 17.0N 32.6W TOO WEAK 97 -- Atlantic Ocean

Looking at a loop of GOES 12 images from the NRL site, it looks to me like the center is still more near 16° than 17° . Either way, it is still pretty disorganized.


could this thing be on its way to death? Cause its looking slightly worse by the hour.

<RICKY>


Far too vigorous of a circulation to be putting a death watch out for... comments from the 205 PM TWD (special feature)

1008 MB LOW IS CENTERED W OF THE CAPE VERDE ISLANDS NEAR 16N31W
ALONG A TROPICAL WAVE ALONG 31W THAT EXTENDS S OF 22N AND IS
MOVING W 10-15 KT. THE LOW HAS BROAD CYCLONIC CIRCULATION
WITH MODERATE CONVECTIVE ACTIVITY FROM 14N TO 16N BETWEEN 28W
AND 32W. TROPICAL CYCLONE DEVELOPMENT IS POSSIBLE WITHIN THE
NEXT DAY OR TWO.
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Scorpion

#271 Postby Scorpion » Mon Aug 22, 2005 2:53 pm

Dry air :grr:
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#272 Postby BensonTCwatcher » Mon Aug 22, 2005 5:03 pm

clfenwi wrote:
WeatherEmperor wrote:
clfenwi wrote:SSD's estimate

22/1730 UTC 17.0N 32.6W TOO WEAK 97 -- Atlantic Ocean

Looking at a loop of GOES 12 images from the NRL site, it looks to me like the center is still more near 16° than 17° . Either way, it is still pretty disorganized.


could this thing be on its way to death? Cause its looking slightly worse by the hour.

<RICKY>


Far too vigorous of a circulation to be putting a death watch out for... comments from the 205 PM TWD (special feature)

1008 MB LOW IS CENTERED W OF THE CAPE VERDE ISLANDS NEAR 16N31W
ALONG A TROPICAL WAVE ALONG 31W THAT EXTENDS S OF 22N AND IS
MOVING W 10-15 KT. THE LOW HAS BROAD CYCLONIC CIRCULATION
WITH MODERATE CONVECTIVE ACTIVITY FROM 14N TO 16N BETWEEN 28W
AND 32W. TROPICAL CYCLONE DEVELOPMENT IS POSSIBLE WITHIN THE
NEXT DAY OR TWO.


I agree clfenwi, a lot of people said the same thing about Irene and there have been other storms that lived to fight another day. Truuthfully, if Irene had not gotten mauled by the ULL's on top dry air we woudl likely have a significant hurricane at 45 west or so. I still think we get going around 40 W or so.
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#273 Postby cycloneye » Mon Aug 22, 2005 7:47 pm

A 1008 MB LOW IS CENTERED ABOUT 420 NM W OF THE CAPE VERDE
ISLANDS NEAR 16N33W...ALONG A TROPICAL WAVE S OF 22N MOVING W
15-20 KT. THE LOCATION OF THE LOW HAS BECOME BETTER DEFINED
SINCE YESTERDAY...ALTHOUGH THE CIRCULATION APPEARS ELONGATED
ALONG 19N30W TO 16N37W. CONVECTION IS QUITE MEAGER SINCE THE
SYSTEM APPEARS TO BE EMBEDDED IN A STABLE DRY LAYER N OF 14N.
ISOLATED SHOWERS/TSTMS ARE FROM 13N-18N BETWEEN 29W-37W WHERE
MOISTURE IS BEING PULLED UP THE E SIDE OF THE CIRCULATION. THE
LOW CONTINUES TO BE LOCATED IN A LOW SHEAR ENVIRONMENT AND IS
OVER WATERS WARM ENOUGH TO SUPPORT A TROPICAL CYCLONE...SO
TROPICAL DEVELOPMENT IS


The above is from the 8:05 PM Discussion.
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#274 Postby wxwatcher91 » Mon Aug 22, 2005 8:15 pm

22/2330 UTC 16.8N 33.9W TOO WEAK 97
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#275 Postby cycloneye » Mon Aug 22, 2005 8:44 pm

TROPICAL DEPRESSION INVEST (AL972005) ON 20050823 0000 UTC

...00 HRS... ...12 HRS... ...24 HRS... ...36 HRS...
050823 0000 050823 1200 050824 0000 050824 1200

LAT LON LAT LON LAT LON LAT LON
BAMD 16.4N 33.6W 16.6N 35.9W 17.0N 38.0W 17.4N 39.9W
BAMM 16.4N 33.6W 16.9N 36.3W 17.4N 38.7W 17.8N 40.9W
A98E 16.4N 33.6W 16.8N 36.1W 17.0N 38.6W 17.3N 41.0W
LBAR 16.4N 33.6W 16.9N 36.3W 17.8N 39.0W 18.4N 41.7W
SHIP 25KTS 29KTS 33KTS 39KTS
DSHP 25KTS 29KTS 33KTS 39KTS

...48 HRS... ...72 HRS... ...96 HRS... ..120 HRS...
050825 0000 050826 0000 050827 0000 050828 0000

LAT LON LAT LON LAT LON LAT LON
BAMD 17.9N 41.5W 19.4N 43.8W 22.1N 47.0W 26.6N 49.5W
BAMM 18.3N 42.8W 19.4N 45.6W 21.8N 49.0W 25.3N 52.2W
A98E 17.6N 43.2W 19.1N 46.3W 21.6N 48.7W 26.3N 50.4W
LBAR 19.2N 44.1W 21.0N 48.0W 24.3N 50.1W 30.7N 48.6W
SHIP 45KTS 59KTS 67KTS 70KTS
DSHP 45KTS 59KTS 67KTS 70KTS

...INITIAL CONDITIONS...
LATCUR = 16.4N LONCUR = 33.6W DIRCUR = 280DEG SPDCUR = 12KT
LATM12 = 16.0N LONM12 = 31.4W DIRM12 = 279DEG SPDM12 = 13KT
LATM24 = 15.6N LONM24 = 28.4W
WNDCUR = 25KT RMAXWD = 45NM WNDM12 = 25KT
CENPRS = 1008MB OUTPRS = 1012MB OUTRAD = 175NM SDEPTH = D
RD34NE = 0NM RD34SE = 0NM RD34SW = 0NM RD34NW = 0NM


00:00z Model Guidance for 97L.
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#276 Postby clfenwi » Mon Aug 22, 2005 9:45 pm

Pertinent section from 10:30 TWO:


THUNDERSTORM ACTIVITY HAS INCREASED SOMEWHAT THIS EVENING IN
ASSOCIATION WITH A LARGE TROPICAL WAVE LOCATED OVER THE EASTERN
ATLANTIC OCEAN ABOUT 575 MILES WEST OF THE CAPE VERDE ISLANDS.
THIS SYSTEM HAS THE POTENTIAL FOR CONTINUED GRADUAL DEVELOPMENT
DURING THE NEXT COUPLE OF DAYS AS IT MOVES WESTWARD OR
WEST-NORTHWESTWARD AT 10 TO 15 MPH.
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#277 Postby Matt-hurricanewatcher » Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:22 am

The LLC has become much better defined around 17.8/34.5. It is really starting to wrap. I expect this to become a depression durning the next 24 hours.

http://wwwghcc.msfc.nasa.gov/GOES/goeseastnheir.html
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#278 Postby James » Tue Aug 23, 2005 4:28 am

From the 5:30 TWO:

THUNDERSTORM ACTIVITY HAS BECOME BETTER ORGANIZED IN ASSOCIATION
WITH A LARGE TROPICAL WAVE LOCATED OVER THE EASTERN ATLANTIC OCEAN
ABOUT 700 MILES WEST OF THE CAPE VERDE ISLANDS. THIS SYSTEM HAS
THE POTENTIAL TO DEVELOP INTO A TROPICAL DEPRESSION DURING THE NEXT
COUPLE OF DAYS AS IT MOVES WESTWARD OR WEST-NORTHWESTWARD AT 10 TO
15 MPH.
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#279 Postby HURAKAN » Tue Aug 23, 2005 5:14 am

We could have Katrina and Lee in just a few days.
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#280 Postby James » Tue Aug 23, 2005 5:38 am

Yea, it sure seems possible. Today will definitely be very interesting.
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