Questions to those who forecast the tropics

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Questions to those who forecast the tropics

#1 Postby NCHurricane » Sun Aug 14, 2005 8:43 am

This is for the pros and ams that post forecasts here.

I've always been curious as to if there is a "routine" of what steps you go through to come up with a forecast for track as well as intensity. Do you always follow the same steps to get your result?

Once you get a location fix report and degree of movement from recon or the NHC, what do you do next, and then what, and so on.

Do you check the models and climo first, or wait until you do a preliminary assessment of what you think and then compare it to the models to fine tune your forecast?

I've always been amazed at how this is done. Irene being a good example. Some people were calling for a landfall, but others at the very beginning called for fish and stuck by it, no matter what the models said.

Thanks for your time. :)
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#2 Postby NCHurricane » Sun Aug 14, 2005 5:32 pm

Edited by author. :D
Last edited by NCHurricane on Sun Aug 14, 2005 5:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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#3 Postby gkrangers » Sun Aug 14, 2005 5:38 pm

Its a slow day.

Theres no major tropical activity.

Thus, the mets have JOBS and have betterthings to do than post on S2K 24/7.

Maybe they'll see your post this evening.
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#4 Postby NCHurricane » Sun Aug 14, 2005 5:45 pm

I am very aware the Mets have JOBS, that's why I also included the "am" (as in amateur) part of the initial question. I knew the Pros, if they chose to respond, would do so in due time. Thanks for clearing things up and have a good day. 8-)
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#5 Postby senorpepr » Sun Aug 14, 2005 5:49 pm

NCHurricane wrote:I am very aware the Mets have JOBS, that's why I also included the "am" (as in amateur) part of the initial question. I knew the Pros, if they chose to respond, would do so in due time. Thanks for clearing things up and have a good day. 8-)


I'm working on a reply. It'll take some time though. :wink:
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#6 Postby NCHurricane » Sun Aug 14, 2005 5:52 pm

No rush, senorpepr. Thanks. :)
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#7 Postby senorpepr » Sun Aug 14, 2005 6:10 pm

Personally, this is how I go about tropical forecasting.

First, the key to all forecasting is using the forecast funnel. Take a look at the big picture -- the really big picture. I typically look at a hemispheric chart. (I know, some of these steps are typical of mid-latitude forecasting, which is what I normally do, but they do hold a key for tropical systems) Upstream ridges and troughs can play a role on the position of fronts and subtropical ridges which can all steer a cyclone in different directions. You saw this a few days ago in an Irene advisory.

THE FUTURE TRACK OF IRENE DEPENDS VERY MUCH ON THE EVOLVING LONGWAVE
PATTERN IN THE MID LATITUDES LATER ON IN THE FORECAST.
SPECIFICALLY...A BLOCKING RIDGE OVER ALASKA AND AN AMPLIFICATION OF
A DOWNSTREAM TROF OVER THE NORTH CENTRAL/NORTHWESTERN U.S. WILL
DETERMINE HOW ROBUST THE WESTERN ATLANTIC RIDGE WILL BE AND HOW
LONG IT STAYS IN PLACE.
AT THIS TIME...GIVEN THE GOOD AGREEMENT ON
THE LONGWAVE PATTERN IN THE NCEP AND ECWMF ENSEMBLE MEAN SOLUTIONS
WHICH DEPICT A CLOSED ANTICYCLONE TO FORM OVER THE WESTERN ATLANTIC
AT THAT RANGE...THE TRACK OF IRENE HAS BEEN SHIFTED FARTHER SOUTH
AND WEST.


Once the macroscale features are determined, then I look at the synoptic scale across the basin and the relationship between it and the larger features. This will include atmospheric moisture, shear, water temperatures, etc. I think incorporate all the model guidance out there. I begin to look at the outlier models and try to determine why they are going “against the grain” of the other models. Then I start ordering the reliability of each model versus what I have determined from the synoptic and macroscale features.

Once those features are established and an idea of a forecast “cone,” then I being to focus on that “cone.” I pretty much look at the same things, but at a much closer scale. At this point, I start incorporating smaller features such as some bands of dry air or warm water eddies and cool pools left from previous storms. Each will throw off the track and intensity.

Afterwards, I begin to focus on the storm itself. I figure out a storm position and Dvorak estimate and then compare that to what the other agencies are thinking. I bring all sorts of satellite imagery into the mix – including microwave imagery. Once I establish the local storm’s set-up, then I can apply that to my forecast and adjust as necessary.

When a storm is approaching landfall, additional small factors also play a big role. Microscale features across the land can produce large differences. Some locations can pick up huge amounts of rainfall compared to other nearby areas. The same goes for wind, surge, and severe weather. All of these have to be fine-tuned in the small, local scale.

Now, I personally believe two heads are better than one, so after I complete my forecast and its associated reasoning, I’ll then apply it to what other professionals are saying. Sometimes another met will point out something minute that I may have missed. If I agree with the reasoning, or rather, feel that it will be a large enough influence and then I’ll adjust my forecast as needed. However, if I feel the other parameters are more dominate, then I’ll stick with my guns. It’s all a delicate balancing act with science, common sense, and a little bit of art.
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#8 Postby NCHurricane » Sun Aug 14, 2005 7:11 pm

Wow, thanks senorpepr. That was more than I expected and very informative. Thank you taking the time to answer.

I would like to try my very amateurish hand at this soon, I just was looking at different ways to go about it. I had my idea backwards - small to big - focus on the storm and then try to go out and find factors to influence it, but the way you describe your steps are very helpful .

To others: do you also do it that way or another way?

(I'll be a little more patient this time gkrangers. I wait until tommorrow when I get home from my JOB.) :wink:
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#9 Postby senorpepr » Sun Aug 14, 2005 7:28 pm

NCHurricane wrote:I had my idea backwards - small to big - focus on the storm and then try to go out and find factors to influence it, but the way you describe your steps are very helpful .


Well, that way is the way I was taught through school. I compare it to working on a car. You don't immediately start working on a certain part of the car without looking at the big picture. You first have to see what type of car it is. Then start working to what symptoms are present. Once you get that, then you can focus on the potential problem areas and then focus on the problem at hand to see if that fixes the symptoms.
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#10 Postby Jim Cantore » Sun Aug 14, 2005 8:10 pm

I forcast by taking the computer models, The ridge and burmuda high locations, and a little climatology and forming my own opinions
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#11 Postby MWatkins » Sun Aug 14, 2005 10:18 pm

First of all I like mr pepr's approach...zoom way out at the big picture...then zoom back in.

High level...here is how I go at it...for whatever this is worth (assuming I am keeping close tabs with recent trends in movement and intensification...this should have been done long before writing a forecast...it's virtually impossible to just sit down and write something up).

1. Evaluate any past forecasts from me, anyone else, and model verification stats. Are they verifying well...which person or entity or model has the best handle on what has happened so far.

2. Evaluate the models, 1 by 1, against their most recent full run. What has changed...what features are being handled differently...what is the trend etc.

3. Compare the initialization of these models against the current synoptic setup (and recent position fixes) Which models have the best handle on the current situation. Were any initialized poorly..etc. Pour through any recon data available. Evaluate the storm structure and whether the estimated structure is well represented in the initialization of the models.

4. Map out the tracks.

5. Evaluate the intensity of the current storm. What do the trends look like...what level should be storm be steered by etc.

6. Take a first stab at a forecast track. How does that compare to the guidance I favored before? How does that compare to the previous forecast. Is a flip flop?

7. Filter through the track and make adjustments to course and speed to refine the track.

8. Upload the track to the database...write up the stuff I evaluated bammo...I'm done.

Of course there a lot of things I tend to do, personally, that I may have left off of this list because I do them without thinking about them...so lemee know if you have questions...or would like any additional details.

Good question...I think.

MW
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#12 Postby senorpepr » Sun Aug 14, 2005 10:24 pm

Ahh, Mr. Watkins... you brought up something I failed to mention, but is very important.

Initialization.

The initialization of a model run is VERY important. We know that over time, the margin of error increasing with the models. If and when a model is off at the beginning of the run, imagine how great that error will be amplified by day five.
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#13 Postby boca » Sun Aug 14, 2005 10:28 pm

Important question will the shear relax anytime soon to professional mets?
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#14 Postby fci » Sun Aug 14, 2005 10:31 pm

Real good question and GREAT responses; senorpepr and Mr. Watkins!

After reading some ridiculous threads, THIS is the kind of thread we learn from.
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#15 Postby wxmann_91 » Sun Aug 14, 2005 10:43 pm

Thanks to the responses by Senorpepr and MWatkins! I think I've learned something today, and will try to look at it from that approach next time I make a forecast.

BTW Senorpepr, do you have a link for the hemispheric charts? Or do you have to pay for them or something?
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#16 Postby Ixolib » Sun Aug 14, 2005 11:03 pm

senorpepr wrote:Ahh, Mr. Watkins... you brought up something I failed to mention, but is very important.

Initialization.

The initialization of a model run is VERY important. We know that over time, the margin of error increasing with the models. If and when a model is off at the beginning of the run, imagine how great that error will be amplified by day five.


When you mention "great error", will a difference of 90NMI (as indicated in the quoted advisory) contribute significantly to the error, or are we talking initilization that is off by a much greater distance? What kind of error at day 5 would a 90NMI difference present? BTW, I'm just using this quote as an illustration for learning purposes since we all know the story on TD 10 (at least the "present story"). :D

From advisory #2 on EX-TD10.
LITTLE CHANGE IN THE OVERALL STRUCTURE OF THE DEPRESSION HAS OCCURRED OVER THE PAST 6 HOURS. THE CONVECTIVE PATTERN HAS TAKEN ON THE APPEARN CE OF A SHEARED SYSTEM...WHILE WIND REPORTS FROM NOAA BUOY 41041 AND A 13/2349Z SSMI OVERPASS SUGGEST THAT BROAD CIRCULATION CENTER MAY BE LOCATED NEAR 14N46W...OR ABOUT 90 NMI SOUTHWEST OF THE ADVISORY POSITION.
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#17 Postby senorpepr » Mon Aug 15, 2005 12:36 am

wxmann_91 wrote:Thanks to the responses by Senorpepr and MWatkins! I think I've learned something today, and will try to look at it from that approach next time I make a forecast.

BTW Senorpepr, do you have a link for the hemispheric charts? Or do you have to pay for them or something?


Normally I get my charts through a normal venue. Although I don't have to pay for it, it is restricted for public access. Regardless, I did a quick Google search and found this from Unisys: http://weather.unisys.com/upper_air/ua_nhem_500p.html
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#18 Postby senorpepr » Mon Aug 15, 2005 12:45 am

Ixolib wrote:
senorpepr wrote:Ahh, Mr. Watkins... you brought up something I failed to mention, but is very important.

Initialization.

The initialization of a model run is VERY important. We know that over time, the margin of error increasing with the models. If and when a model is off at the beginning of the run, imagine how great that error will be amplified by day five.


When you mention "great error", will a difference of 90NMI (as indicated in the quoted advisory) contribute significantly to the error, or are we talking initilization that is off by a much greater distance? What kind of error at day 5 would a 90NMI difference present? BTW, I'm just using this quote as an illustration for learning purposes since we all know the story on TD 10 (at least the "present story"). :D

From advisory #2 on EX-TD10.
LITTLE CHANGE IN THE OVERALL STRUCTURE OF THE DEPRESSION HAS OCCURRED OVER THE PAST 6 HOURS. THE CONVECTIVE PATTERN HAS TAKEN ON THE APPEARN CE OF A SHEARED SYSTEM...WHILE WIND REPORTS FROM NOAA BUOY 41041 AND A 13/2349Z SSMI OVERPASS SUGGEST THAT BROAD CIRCULATION CENTER MAY BE LOCATED NEAR 14N46W...OR ABOUT 90 NMI SOUTHWEST OF THE ADVISORY POSITION.


Okay... well, 90nm is about 1.5 degrees in longitude. That is about the distance from Ocean Springs, MS to Pensacola, FL.

I don't know the exact rate of increase in error, but by day five you could be looking at an error from a few hundred miles to a few thousand miles. That 90nm error could mean the difference between missing a trough or being picked up by a trough. It could mean the difference between being sheared apart and blossoming into a monster hurricane. It all really depends on all the key features that are present. In a fairly quiet pattern it won't mean a great deal of difference, but when you throw upper-level lows, fronts, building ridges, etc., into the mix, the potential for error jumps quickly.
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#19 Postby wxmann_91 » Mon Aug 15, 2005 9:38 am

senorpepr wrote:
wxmann_91 wrote:Thanks to the responses by Senorpepr and MWatkins! I think I've learned something today, and will try to look at it from that approach next time I make a forecast.

BTW Senorpepr, do you have a link for the hemispheric charts? Or do you have to pay for them or something?


Normally I get my charts through a normal venue. Although I don't have to pay for it, it is restricted for public access. Regardless, I did a quick Google search and found this from Unisys: http://weather.unisys.com/upper_air/ua_nhem_500p.html


Thanks Senorpepr! :D
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Re: Questions to those who forecast the tropics

#20 Postby donsutherland1 » Mon Aug 15, 2005 11:08 am

NCHurricane,

My forecasting relies on the following steps:

1) Overall synoptic situation:

• 500 mb charts
• Wind Shear/Shear tendencies
• Steering currents
• SSTs/Hurricane Heat Content

This gives me a rough approximation of what might be reasonable.

2) Models/Ensembles:

For the medium-range, I give greater weight to the ECMWF (outstanding medium-range model) and GFS ensembles. I do give consideration to the model consensus and spread but, as was the case with Irene, rejected early on the strong consensus for early recurvature (~55W). This was, in part, due to the ECMWF and synoptic situation suggesting that the "weaker" system would probably maintain a west-northwest movement for a longer period then modeled.

I do watch model trends. If there is a lack of run-to-run continuinty, I'll be hesitant to place much weight on any single run until things begin to stabilize. In such cases, I'll give greater weight to a combination of the synoptic situation and historic climatology.

3) Historic Climatology:

In cases where model uncertainty is high, an understanding of how past storms behaved in reasonably similar synoptic environments can offer a degree of confidence. Irene was a textbook case, in my view, as the models really didn't solidify on the recurvature option until very near to the beginning of recurvature.

In the case of Irene, historic experience suggested a lot would have to go right for landfall to occur and that such situations were rare. Thus, I chose not to go with the model consensus when it swung to the landfall idea. Later, the modeling trended back to the East.

Also, given uncertainties in intensity forecasting, I give significant weight to historic climatology/synoptic situation. Hence, I did not back away from the idea that what became Irene would ultimately become a hurricane nor did I back away from the idea that it would reach a peak intensity of 90 mph (made August 11, 11:30 pm) even as time grew increasingly short. Irene later intensified to 85 mph and we'll see if it grows a tad stronger. This approach also worked well with regard to the idea that Hurricane Emily would likely regain major hurricane status and make landfall as a major hurricane (forecast made 78.5 hours in advance of landfall and ahead of its Yucatan landfall) after its passage across the Yucatan Peninsula.

I've seen many intensity forecasts vary substantially from model run to model run, in no small part because intensity forecasting is an area for which much improvement is required (often a point made by the NHC). This is where I believe a skillful use of climatology can help. Bear in mind that the MOS guidance increasingly trends toward climatology in the latter part of its time horizon. The same concept, when applied to intensity forecasting can, in my view, provide better guidance than if one relies solely on the GFDL, SHIPS, DSHPS, etc. So far, that seems to have been the case with regard to Emily and Irene.

Anyway, those are my thoughts.
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