ATL: FLORENCE - Post-Tropical - Discussion

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Re: ATL: FLORENCE - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#121 Postby plasticup » Sat Sep 01, 2018 3:44 pm

At this time,
the overall guidance has been shifting a little bit westward,
suggesting a stronger ridge. On this basis, the NHC forecast was
adjusted slightly in that direction at the end of the forecast
period.

It's interesting that Avila talk so much about the stearing, but all these little jogs west aren't really the issue. The important thing is whether or nor the trough picks Florence up at all, and that won't start to be clear for another 3-4 days. Whether it recurves at 45W or at 55W makes no difference.
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Re: ATL: FLORENCE - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#122 Postby chaser1 » Sat Sep 01, 2018 4:39 pm

plasticup wrote:
At this time,
the overall guidance has been shifting a little bit westward,
suggesting a stronger ridge. On this basis, the NHC forecast was
adjusted slightly in that direction at the end of the forecast
period.

It's interesting that Avila talk so much about the stearing, but all these little jogs west aren't really the issue. The important thing is whether or nor the trough picks Florence up at all, and that won't start to be clear for another 3-4 days. Whether it recurves at 45W or at 55W makes no difference.


I think you're missing the point. You're right in that it doesn't necessarily matter if the storm were to recurve at 40W, 50W, or perhaps 60W. What matters is:
1) how weak or strong Florence may be = whether or not a trough might be capable of picking up the storm
2) how far south, or west the storm might be at any point where a trough well to its north may or may not cause enough of a "pull" or erosion of mid level ridging to impact its motion
3) how fast the storm is moving or forecast to move relative to the orientation and location of temporary dropping troughs

So, how these other variables play out LARGELY impacts whether or not a trough may only impact any storms forward motion, or directly cause mid level steering to turn any given storm poleward and away from any land. Have you ever nearly been in some type of auto or other accident, and found yourself thinking ".... wow, just 2 seconds earlier or slower and that could've happened to me instead". That's pretty much how weather systems are and the differences that can occur by relative small scale different synoptic weather system positions and orientation can result in. A distance of 50 miles can mean a particular spot receiving category 5 winds verses barely feeling hurricane conditions at all. 12-24 hours or perhaps a 50-100 mile distance over the vast open ocean could spell the difference whether a hurricane might directly strike the Carolina outer banks or possibly swing harmlessly well offshore.
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Re: ATL: FLORENCE - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#123 Postby Yellow Evan » Sat Sep 01, 2018 5:52 pm

Given microwave presentation, I don't understand why this is only 40 knots.
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Re: ATL: FLORENCE - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#124 Postby AutoPenalti » Sat Sep 01, 2018 5:54 pm

plasticup wrote:
At this time,
the overall guidance has been shifting a little bit westward,
suggesting a stronger ridge. On this basis, the NHC forecast was
adjusted slightly in that direction at the end of the forecast
period.

It's interesting that Avila talk so much about the stearing, but all these little jogs west aren't really the issue. The important thing is whether or nor the trough picks Florence up at all, and that won't start to be clear for another 3-4 days. Whether it recurves at 45W or at 55W makes no difference.

We don't really know that though, that is the problem. You can never be certain of a steering pattern as sensitive as this to be correct 5 or 6 days in advance.
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Re: ATL: FLORENCE - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#125 Postby Hammy » Sat Sep 01, 2018 6:53 pm

Yellow Evan wrote:Given microwave presentation, I don't understand why this is only 40 knots.


Probably waiting for some sort of ASCAT confirmation to see how close to the wind the satellite appearance is.
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Re: ATL: FLORENCE - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#126 Postby Yellow Evan » Sat Sep 01, 2018 7:41 pm

02/0000 UTC 15.5N 29.6W T2.5/2.5 FLORENCE -- Atlantic


I mean it's not a bad fix in accordance with Dvorak guidelines but this is way higher than 35 knots.
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Re: ATL: FLORENCE - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#127 Postby cycloneye » Sat Sep 01, 2018 7:57 pm

00z Best Track up to 45 kts.

AL, 06, 2018090200, , BEST, 0, 158N, 295W, 45, 1000, T
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Re: ATL: FLORENCE - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#128 Postby cycloneye » Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:55 pm

Tropical Storm Florence Discussion Number 11
NWS National Hurricane Center Miami FL AL062018
1100 PM AST Sat Sep 01 2018

Florence continues to become better organized, with a circular
central dense overcast and a complex of outer bands in all
quadrants except the southwest. Satellite intensity estimates
range from 35-55 kt, and thus the initial intensity is increased to
45 kt. Given the overall good appearance in satellite imagery, it
is possible this is conservative.

For the next 2 days or so, Florence should remain in a light shear
environment over sea surface temperatures near 26C. Most of the
guidance shows some slow strengthening, and the intensity forecast
follows suit. After 48 h, the cyclone should reach warmer water and
encounter southwesterly shear, and this combination is expected to
result in little change in strength during this period. The
intensity forecast is only slightly changed from the previous
advisory and remains near the consensus aids. Considering the lack
of shear and the good structure, though, it would not be surprising
if Florence got a little stronger than forecast during the next
couple of days.

The initial motion is 290/12. The track guidance suggests a
general west-northwestward motion should continue for the next 3-4
days as Florence is steered by the subtropical ridge to the north.
Near the end of the forecast period, a more northwestward motion
is expected. Despite the relatively straightforward steering
pattern, there is a significant spread in the track guidance even by
72 h, with the Canadian model on the far right side of the guidance
envelope, the ECMWF on the left side, and the other dynamical
models loosely clustered in between. However, the overall guidance
envelope has changed little since the last advisory, and the new
track forecast lies near both the center of the envelope and the
previous forecast.


FORECAST POSITIONS AND MAX WINDS

INIT 02/0300Z 16.0N 30.2W 45 KT 50 MPH
12H 02/1200Z 16.5N 32.3W 50 KT 60 MPH
24H 03/0000Z 17.1N 35.0W 55 KT 65 MPH
36H 03/1200Z 17.6N 37.7W 55 KT 65 MPH
48H 04/0000Z 18.2N 40.2W 55 KT 65 MPH
72H 05/0000Z 19.5N 44.5W 55 KT 65 MPH
96H 06/0000Z 21.5N 49.0W 50 KT 60 MPH
120H 07/0000Z 24.0N 52.5W 50 KT 60 MPH

$$
Forecaster Beven

NNNN
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Re: ATL: FLORENCE - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#129 Postby Hurricaneman » Sat Sep 01, 2018 10:20 pm

Here may be another wildcard for the track of Florence, an area of disturbed weather around 30N 50W that keeps the ridge from building and keeps the avenue open
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Re: ATL: FLORENCE - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#130 Postby djones65 » Sun Sep 02, 2018 2:36 am

The 06Z Best track has Florence at 50 knots!
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Re: ATL: FLORENCE - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#131 Postby AJC3 » Sun Sep 02, 2018 4:28 am

Tropical Storm Florence Discussion Number 12
NWS National Hurricane Center Miami FL AL062018
500 AM AST Sun Sep 02 2018

Florence continues to gradually strengthen. Microwave imagery from
a recent AMSR overpass indicates that a majority of the deep
convection is located in the northern semicircle of the tropical
storm, but its center is still well embedded within the central
dense overcast. A blend of satellite intensity estimates from SAB
and TAFB supports increasing the intensity to 50 kt.

Some additional slight strengthening is still expected over the next
day or so while Florence remains in a light shear environment and
over marginal SSTs. Beginning in about 3 days, slow weakening is
forecast due to an expected increase in wind shear associated with
an extensive mid- to upper-level trough over the central Atlantic.
The intensity guidance is in generally good agreement through 120 h,
and the official forecast remains near the intensity consensus.

The initial motion is now 290/13. The track guidance is fairly
tightly packed for the first 48 h or so, with the spread increasing
more quickly beyond that time. For the next couple of days, the
subtropical ridge should keep Florence moving westward to
west-northwestward at a similar forward speed. By day 3, a
west-northwest to northwest motion is forecast to begin, as the
aforementioned mid- to upper-level trough influences the track of
the tropical storm. While all of the global models show this
general scenario, the extent to which Florence will gain latitude is
less certain. A stronger Florence will likely turn more toward the
northwest, while a weaker, shallower system should continue on a
more westward to west-northwestward track. For now, the NHC
forecast remains near the middle of the guidance envelope, close to
all of the consensus models. This track is also generally in line
with the official intensity forecast, which shows a somewhat weaker
system than the GFS (on the north side of the guidance), but a
stronger one than the ECMWF (on the south side).

FORECAST POSITIONS AND MAX WINDS

INIT 02/0900Z 16.5N 31.4W 50 KT 60 MPH
12H 02/1800Z 17.0N 33.5W 55 KT 65 MPH
24H 03/0600Z 17.5N 36.3W 55 KT 65 MPH
36H 03/1800Z 18.0N 39.0W 55 KT 65 MPH
48H 04/0600Z 18.5N 41.4W 55 KT 65 MPH
72H 05/0600Z 20.1N 45.5W 55 KT 65 MPH
96H 06/0600Z 22.0N 49.5W 50 KT 60 MPH
120H 07/0600Z 24.0N 53.0W 45 KT 50 MPH
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Re: ATL: FLORENCE - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#132 Postby NDG » Sun Sep 02, 2018 7:49 am

Florence's LLC is racing almost due west, it has separated from the MLC, expect the models to keep trending west. IMO.

Image
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Re: ATL: FLORENCE - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#133 Postby cycloneye » Sun Sep 02, 2018 8:02 am

Down to 45 kts.

AL, 06, 2018090212, , BEST, 0, 168N, 324W, 45, 1000, TS
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Re: ATL: FLORENCE - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#134 Postby plasticup » Sun Sep 02, 2018 8:24 am

cycloneye wrote:Down to 45 kts.

AL, 06, 2018090212, , BEST, 0, 168N, 324W, 45, 1000, TS

You think the lack of convection over the LLC?
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Re: ATL: FLORENCE - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#135 Postby TheStormExpert » Sun Sep 02, 2018 8:26 am

plasticup wrote:
cycloneye wrote:Down to 45 kts.

AL, 06, 2018090212, , BEST, 0, 168N, 324W, 45, 1000, TS

You think the lack of convection over the LLC?

Probably has to do with the LLC running out ahead of the MLC. Maybe the Euro and the UKMET aren’t too off after all. :eek:
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Re: ATL: FLORENCE - Advisories

#136 Postby cycloneye » Sun Sep 02, 2018 9:49 am

BULLETIN
Tropical Storm Florence Advisory Number 13
NWS National Hurricane Center Miami FL AL062018
1100 AM AST Sun Sep 02 2018

...FLORENCE MOVING QUICKLY WEST-NORTHWESTWARD OVER THE OPEN EASTERN
ATLANTIC OCEAN...


SUMMARY OF 1100 AM AST...1500 UTC...INFORMATION
-----------------------------------------------
LOCATION...17.0N 33.2W
ABOUT 605 MI...970 KM WNW OF THE SOUTHERNMOST CABO VERDE ISLANDS
MAXIMUM SUSTAINED WINDS...50 MPH...85 KM/H
PRESENT MOVEMENT...WNW OR 285 DEGREES AT 18 MPH...30 KM/H
MINIMUM CENTRAL PRESSURE...1000 MB...29.53 INCHES
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tropical Storm Florence Discussion Number 13
NWS National Hurricane Center Miami FL AL062018
1100 AM AST Sun Sep 02 2018

Florence's convective cloud appearance has become rather disheveled
this morning, with most of the deep convection sheared to the east
and northeast of the now fully exposed but well-defined low-level
circulation center. Both subjective and objective satellite
intensity estimates have decreased, especially the objective ADT
estimates from UW-CIMSS. Based on a blend of the available
estimates, the intensity has been lowered to 45 kt.

The initial motion is 285/16. Now that the system has weakened and
become more vertically shallow, a more westward component of motion
is expected throughout the forecast period. All but the GFS and HWRF
models have picked up on this more westerly component of motion, and
the ECMWF and UKMET models are now the southernmost models in the
guidance suite. Since the ridge to the north is expected to remain
intact and even build more westward over the next 5 days, the new
NHC track forecast has been shifted southward and to the left of the
previous advisory track, and lies close to a blend of the HCCA,
FSSE, and TCVN track consensus models.

Analyses from UW-CIMSS indicate that westerly to southwesterly
vertical wind shear of 15-20 kt is undercutting the otherwise
favorable upper-level outflow pattern noted in water vapor imagery
and by the GFS- and ECMWF-based SHIPS model, which show the shear
to be less than 10 kt. GOES-16 mid-level water vapor imagery also
reveals that Florence is ingesting considerable dry air in the
western and southern quadrants, with the dry mid-level air having
penetrated into the inner-core region. Since the vertical shear is
expected to get a little worse over the next 3-4 days while the
cyclone is moving over SSTs near 26 deg C, little change in strength
is forecast through 96 h. By 120 h, however, Florence is forecast to
move over warmer waters with SSTs exceeding 28 deg C and also into
a weaker shear environment, which should allow for some
re-strengthening to occur. The new NHC intensity forecast is a
little lower than the one in the previous advisory, and closely
follows the consensus model IVCN, through 96 h, and then is a
little above the guidance at 120 h.

FORECAST POSITIONS AND MAX WINDS

INIT 02/1500Z 17.0N 33.2W 45 KT 50 MPH
12H 03/0000Z 17.4N 35.3W 45 KT 50 MPH
24H 03/1200Z 17.9N 38.2W 45 KT 50 MPH
36H 04/0000Z 18.4N 40.7W 45 KT 50 MPH
48H 04/1200Z 18.9N 42.8W 45 KT 50 MPH
72H 05/1200Z 20.5N 47.0W 45 KT 50 MPH
96H 06/1200Z 22.4N 51.0W 45 KT 50 MPH
120H 07/1200Z 24.3N 54.3W 55 KT 65 MPH

$$
Forecaster Stewart
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Re: ATL: FLORENCE - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#137 Postby Shell Mound » Sun Sep 02, 2018 9:59 am

Now that the system has weakened and
become more vertically shallow, a more westward component of motion
is expected throughout the forecast period.
All but the GFS and HWRF
models have picked up on this more westerly component of motion, and
the ECMWF and UKMET models are now the southernmost models in the
guidance suite.
Since the ridge to the north is expected to remain
intact and even build more westward over the next 5 days
, the new
NHC track forecast has been shifted southward and to the left of the
previous advisory track, and lies close to a blend of the HCCA,
FSSE, and TCVN track consensus models.

...

Since the vertical shear is
expected to get a little worse over the next 3-4 days while the
cyclone is moving over SSTs near 26 deg C, little change in strength
is forecast through 96 h. By 120 h, however, Florence is forecast to
move over warmer waters with SSTs exceeding 28 deg C and also into
a weaker shear environment, which should allow for some
re-strengthening to occur.

https://www.nhc.noaa.gov/text/refresh/MIATCDAT1+shtml/021449.shtml

The plot thickens.
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Re: ATL: FLORENCE - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#138 Postby plasticup » Sun Sep 02, 2018 2:31 pm

Convention has caught up with the circulation. Looking really good this afternoon. I'm curious where they'll put the next intensity estimate.
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ATL: FLORENCE - Models

#139 Postby ScottNAtlanta » Sun Sep 02, 2018 3:04 pm

Anyone ready to up their ACE forecasts yet?
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Re: ATL: FLORENCE - Advisories

#140 Postby cycloneye » Sun Sep 02, 2018 3:39 pm

BULLETIN
Tropical Storm Florence Advisory Number 14
NWS National Hurricane Center Miami FL AL062018
500 PM AST Sun Sep 02 2018

...FLORENCE MOVING WEST-NORTHWESTWARD WITH NO CHANGE IN STRENGTH...


SUMMARY OF 500 PM AST...2100 UTC...INFORMATION
----------------------------------------------
LOCATION...17.4N 34.6W
ABOUT 700 MI...1125 KM WNW OF THE SOUTHERNMOST CABO VERDE ISLANDS
MAXIMUM SUSTAINED WINDS...50 MPH...85 KM/H
PRESENT MOVEMENT...WNW OR 285 DEGREES AT 17 MPH...28 KM/H
MINIMUM CENTRAL PRESSURE...1000 MB...29.53 INCHES





Tropical Storm Florence Discussion Number 14
NWS National Hurricane Center Miami FL AL062018
500 PM AST Sun Sep 02 2018

Florence's cloud pattern is characterized by a low-level center
partially displaced to the west of the coldest cloud tops, which
have expanded in coverage recently. A blend of the latest satellite
classifications supports maintaining an intensity of 45 kt for this
advisory package. Little change in strength is expected for much of
the forecast period, as Florence will be moving through an
environment characterized by moderate shear and marginal SSTs for
the next 3 days. By the end of the forecast period, the SSTs begin
to warm up, which should result in some restrengthening. The new NHC
intensity forecast is similar to the previous one and is closest to
the SHIPS model forecast.

The initial motion estimate is 285/15. Florence will be steered
west-northwestward or westward for the next several days by the
Atlantic subtropical ridge. There is a fair amount of north-south
spread in the guidance, with the GFS, GEFS ensemble mean and HWRF on
the right side of the envelope and the ECMWF, ECMWF mean and UKMET
on the left. This spread is likely due to large differences in the
vertical structure of the cyclone, with the ECMWF and UKMET having a
much weaker vortex at 500 mb compared to the GFS in 3-4 days. Given
the difficulty in forecasting these types of structural changes,
the NHC forecast lies in the middle of the guidance envelope and is
close to the multi-model consensus aids through the forecast period.
This forecast is largely an update of the previous NHC prediction.

FORECAST POSITIONS AND MAX WINDS

INIT 02/2100Z 17.4N 34.6W 45 KT 50 MPH
12H 03/0600Z 17.7N 36.9W 45 KT 50 MPH
24H 03/1800Z 18.2N 39.6W 45 KT 50 MPH
36H 04/0600Z 18.6N 41.9W 45 KT 50 MPH
48H 04/1800Z 19.3N 44.0W 45 KT 50 MPH
72H 05/1800Z 21.1N 48.3W 45 KT 50 MPH
96H 06/1800Z 23.0N 52.0W 45 KT 50 MPH
120H 07/1800Z 25.5N 56.0W 55 KT 65 MPH

$$
Forecaster Brennan
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