I have a homework question.

[wxcrazytwo]

We are discussing transformationn development change in the poor and non poor sector. The instructor says that if you need to embrace Christ as a whole, that you need to change your deep core values, and without that you cannot embrace him fully. I think this is B.S. If you change your deep core values (identity), then you lose who you are as a person, and that is not Christ's intention. His intention is to change the way a person thinks, so that is in line with his. I think you can keep your values, but change the way you think. Christ should embrace whomever is willing to accept his word despite the difference in core values. WHAT DO YOU THINK. I HAVE FEELING THE PROFESSOR IS GOING TO CHASTISE ME ON THIS ONE.

[GalvestonDuck]

Do you take a bath before you get in the shower?

I think it's less about making changes BEFORE and more about how a person is changed AFTER accepting Christ into his/her heart.

Just my two cents....

[wxcrazytwo]

Do you take a bath before you get in the shower?

I think it's less about making changes BEFORE and more about how a person is changed AFTER accepting Christ into his/her heart.

Just my two cents....

Okay, but does the person have to change his deep core values in order to embrace Christ?

[GalvestonDuck]

Do you take a bath before you get in the shower?

I think it's less about making changes BEFORE and more about how a person is changed AFTER accepting Christ into his/her heart.

Just my two cents....

Okay, but does the person have to change his deep core values in order to embrace Christ?

No, that's my point -- a person doesn't have to change anything. But that's not to say they won't be changed.

[Stellar Storm]

Wow....this a a question everyone struggles with. But Christ said, "Come as you are." Remember, he mingled with the outcast - the tax collector, the prostitute.....Your core beliefs have more to do with how you were raised and what you've been through in life....Christ understands and knows this completely.....therefore, there is no way that the Christ I know would not accept you exactly as you are.

[Windsong]

hummmmm... like a chicken and egg question.

Do you try to be different so you can change
or do you change so you can be different?

I think you make the effort, and the changes are automatically done.

Windsong

[wxcrazytwo]

hummmmm... like a chicken and egg question.

Do you try to be different so you can change
or do you change so you can be different?

I think you make the effort, and the changes are automatically done.

Windsong

But core values are essential to ones identity. According to transformational development change has to come in order to embrace Christ's message. However, it doesn't say that values have to change. In fact, the book I am reading states that it is wrong to change ones culture because it then changes who the person and the community are.

[Skywatch_NC]

hummmmm... like a chicken and egg question.

Do you try to be different so you can change
or do you change so you can be different?

I think you make the effort, and the changes are automatically done.

Windsong

But core values are essential to ones identity. According to transformational development change has to come in order to embrace Christ's message. However, it doesn't say that values have to change. In fact, the book I am reading states that it is wrong to change ones culture because it then changes who the person and the community are.

What's the title of the book?

[wxcrazytwo]

hummmmm... like a chicken and egg question.

Do you try to be different so you can change
or do you change so you can be different?

I think you make the effort, and the changes are automatically done.

Windsong

But core values are essential to ones identity. According to transformational development change has to come in order to embrace Christ's message. However, it doesn't say that values have to change. In fact, the book I am reading states that it is wrong to change ones culture because it then changes who the person and the community are.

What's the title of the book?

walking with the poor by Meyers

[Stellar Storm]

I don't know what book you are reading that says that changing a culture is a bad thing. For instance, it use to be in our culture that blacks and whites use separate bathrooms, etc. However, our inert core value - that was always there inside of each person that held it - helped us to realize the wrong and change our culture. Does that mean that everything we did as a culture was wrong? Absolutely not! We still hold on to much of that which we believe is right. Change didn't happen overnight - nothing worthwhile ever does. But it was an outward change of something that had already been inside us. It's not the change itself....it's the reason behind the outward change that make the difference.

[wxcrazytwo]

I don't know what book you are reading that says that changing a culture is a bad thing. For instance, it use to be in our culture that blacks and whites use separate bathrooms, etc. However, our inert core value - that was always there inside of each person that held it - helped us to realize the wrong and change our culture. Does that mean that everything we did as a culture was wrong? Absolutely not! We still hold on to much of that which we believe is right. Change didn't happen overnight - nothing worthwhile ever does. But it was an outward change of something that had already been inside us. It's not the change itself....it's the reason behind the outward change that make the difference.

The description of whites and blacks is not one of culture, but rather is a societal one. Cultural means where one came from. I don't mean to sound arrogant, but what are you attempting to say? I am in graduate school, so you are going to have to talk with a higher perception that I can understand. SORRY. GO A LITTLE DEEPER IN YOUR THOUGHT PROCESS..

[GalvestonDuck]

I don't know what book you are reading that says that changing a culture is a bad thing. For instance, it use to be in our culture that blacks and whites use separate bathrooms, etc. However, our inert core value - that was always there inside of each person that held it - helped us to realize the wrong and change our culture. Does that mean that everything we did as a culture was wrong? Absolutely not! We still hold on to much of that which we believe is right. Change didn't happen overnight - nothing worthwhile ever does. But it was an outward change of something that had already been inside us. It's not the change itself....it's the reason behind the outward change that make the difference.

The description of whites and blacks is not one of culture, but rather is a societal one. Cultural means where one came from. I don't mean to sound arrogant, but what are you attempting to say? I am in graduate school, so you are going to have to talk with a higher perception that I can understand. SORRY. GO A LITTLE DEEPER IN YOUR THOUGHT PROCESS..

Are you asking for help on your homework, and then being critical of those offering their opinions?

[wxcrazytwo]

I don't know what book you are reading that says that changing a culture is a bad thing. For instance, it use to be in our culture that blacks and whites use separate bathrooms, etc. However, our inert core value - that was always there inside of each person that held it - helped us to realize the wrong and change our culture. Does that mean that everything we did as a culture was wrong? Absolutely not! We still hold on to much of that which we believe is right. Change didn't happen overnight - nothing worthwhile ever does. But it was an outward change of something that had already been inside us. It's not the change itself....it's the reason behind the outward change that make the difference.

The description of whites and blacks is not one of culture, but rather is a societal one. Cultural means where one came from. I don't mean to sound arrogant, but what are you attempting to say? I am in graduate school, so you are going to have to talk with a higher perception that I can understand. SORRY. GO A LITTLE DEEPER IN YOUR THOUGHT PROCESS..

Are you asking for help on your homework, and then being critical of those offering their opinions?

No, I want the help, but I am asking for a much deeper answer. The instructor wants deep answers. I am not critical of anyone's answers, I appreciate it very much. I just need deeper answers.

[wxcrazytwo]

I mean I need deeper biblical answers that I yet to understand.

[Amanzi]

HMMM... this is my opinion on the matter.

It depends on what your values are and where they come from. If the values you embrace are based on biblical ones then there is no need to change them. If however what you value and the way you live your life is not biblical you are not fully embracing Christ. It is my belief (from personal experiance) that as a human being it is impossible to make these changes without the power of the Holy Spirit. Accepting Christ does bring about changes in your very core, your whole way of thinking (with time, prayer, and biblical study) becomes centered around the way Christ would react or deal with a situation. Before I knew Christ, my values were different to what they are now. Some of my culture changed as well. I grew up in South Africa during Apartheid for example, that was a part of my culture. I went against my culture because as a christian I had embraced Christian values and could not treat apartheid and it's consequences the way many of the people who influenced me did (including my own parents to an extent). I have friends who's cultures were rooted in ancestoral spirit worship, this was a very big part of who they were and where they came from. When they embraced Christ that part of them had to die because it goes against the basic biblical principals of who Christ was and who we are to become when we accept Him as our savior.

The bible says when we accept him, the old things have passed away, we become new creatures in Him. He loves us imperfect as we are, but as true Christians we should try to be Christlike and that means a new life in Him and letting go of the old things that are not in accordance with His word.

[Amanzi]

I mean I need deeper biblical answers that I yet to understand.

If there is specific scripture you are looking for I will be glad to help. Just let me know.

[kevin]

Yes the professor I think would chastise you. I have no idea what you're taking (I thought you were going to business school and not seminary) but the truth of the matter is this in a christian worldview:

(a.) Men were created pure and blameless but assumed sin, and all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

(b.) In order to atone for sin, the Hebrews were told to make sacrifices in accordance with their infractions. This put a penalty on sin, as the penalty for sin is death.

(c.) Jesus the Anointed One atoned for all sins by a pure sacrifice. That all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God and are redeemed freely by the grace of Chirst Jesus. So one must believe in Jesus to be redeemed.

Yet what does redeemed look like? Jesus never said abandon the laws, but Jesus did say that there are two highest of laws : love your lord your god, and love your neighbor as you love yourself. When asked who a neighbor is, Jesus offered the Good Samaratin parable (everyone who is suffering is your neighbor). So a christian will follow the laws of morality, not the mechanics because Christians are according to Paul freed from the law and Jesus says that the law should not be followed (strict observance of the Sabbath) when there is a need to do good.

So about the core values. A Christian is a follower of Christ. Timothy says that all scripture is useful for instruction, rebuking et cetera. Christians accept the whole of scripture as their moral basis and the life of Jesus as their moral model.

Can you be a Christian if you don't follow all the teachings of Christ? I'm not one to say, because I am not a Christian. That is something which neither the professor at college, your minister, or even the whole of the religious body can affirm or deny. But can you fully live a Christlike life without having the same values as Jesus, I think logically the answer is no you cannot.

And following the full values and practices of Jesus is something very few people have managed to do in an honest and genuine manner.

[wxcrazytwo]

HMMM... this is my opinion on the matter.

It depends on what your values are and where they come from. If the values you embrace are based on biblical ones then there is no need to change them. If however what you value and the way you live your life is not biblical you are not fully embracing Christ. It is my belief (from personal experiance) that as a human being it is impossible to make these changes without the power of the Holy Spirit. Accepting Christ does bring about changes in your very core, your whole way of thinking (with time, prayer, and biblical study) becomes centered around the way Christ would react or deal with a situation. Before I knew Christ, my values were different to what they are now. Some of my culture changed as well. I grew up in South Africa during Apartheid for example, that was a part of my culture. I went against my culture because as a christian I had embraced Christian values and could not treat apartheid and it's consequences the way many of the people who influenced me did (including my own parents to an extent). I have friends who's cultures were rooted in ancestoral spirit worship, this was a very big part of who they were and where they came from. When they embraced Christ that part of them had to die because it goes against the basic biblical principals of who Christ was and who we are to become when we accept Him as our savior.

The bible says when we accept him, the old things have passed away, we become new creatures in Him. He loves us imperfect as we are, but as true Christians we should try to be Christlike and that means a new life in Him and letting go of the old things that are not in accordance with His word.

Man, that is were I disagree with you there Amanzi. A pre-requisite for embracing Christ should mean also stripping your deep core values (culture), so that you can fully embrace Christ. I believe once you have changed your ways of thinking, then you can fully understand Christ and embrace him, but giving up your identity is nonsense. Christ loves us for who we are. It was said to change ones cultural community means changing the story the community as a whole is identified and that is wrong. Maybe I am not understanding the whole changing for transformational development change.

[wxcrazytwo]

I mean I need deeper biblical answers that I yet to understand.

If there is specific scripture you are looking for I will be glad to help. Just let me know.

scripture would be great on this isse. I just don't buy into selling off your culture for full Christ embrace.

[Stellar Storm]

Stellar Storm wrote:
I don't know what book you are reading that says that changing a culture is a bad thing. For instance, it use to be in our culture that blacks and whites use separate bathrooms, etc. However, our inert core value - that was always there inside of each person that held it - helped us to realize the wrong and change our culture. Does that mean that everything we did as a culture was wrong? Absolutely not! We still hold on to much of that which we believe is right. Change didn't happen overnight - nothing worthwhile ever does. But it was an outward change of something that had already been inside us. It's not the change itself....it's the reason behind the outward change that make the difference.


The description of whites and blacks is not one of culture, but rather is a societal one. Cultural means where one came from. I don't mean to sound arrogant, but what are you attempting to say? I am in graduate school, so you are going to have to talk with a higher perception that I can understand. SORRY. GO A LITTLE DEEPER IN YOUR THOUGHT PROCESS..

Certainly...and you don't sound arrogant at all. It is true that segration is a social issue...but it is also a cultural issue. Since social values (what we believe) are learned through our cultural heritage (where we came from), when we blend different cultures and become de-segregated it is without doubt that this will change...to a degree....all cultures involved to become accepting of others. Therefore, even though our heritages are from different countries across the world (I mean, how many of us can claim to be pure native American?) I have native American in my background....plus alot of other stuff.....English, German, Scottish.....oh...just call me Heinz 57.....but I don't identify with any one culture...except for American.....now the question is, "What is American culture? And how did it become that way? Point is, we had to make a change to desegregate (a social issue) to help form the culture that our children are now being raised in.