Digging in over Iraq

[bfez1]

Delegates emerging from a U.N. Security Council meeting on Iraq have been uncharacteristically blunt in their assessments but unwilling to change their positions. "There is no need at all for a resolution authorizing the end of inspections and basically leaving it to anyone to start using military means," Russian Ambassador Sergey Lavrov said.

[mf_dolphin]

Oh well, I guess we go at it with the "coalition of the willing". There is still plenty of time before the vote comes up in a couple of weeks.

[bfez1]

??????

Weren't the weather conditions suppose to be perfect the 1st wk in March?
How does this effect us our "war" plan???

[mf_dolphin]

The first week in March is "ideal" since it is an almost moonless period and we have a vastly superior night fighting capability. The weather in Iraq will also start getting warmer making fighting on chemical gear much harder on our troops. Since the President decided to submit the latest resolution the 1st week of March is probably out of the question now. Turkey looks like it won't vote on allowing US troops to be based there until this Saturday. Since the ships are already waiting off Turkey's shores, there won't be much of a delay once they finally vote. My best guess now is that were looking at mid to end March before action...

[bfez1]

Thanks for the info, MF
appreciate it.

[M2]

Well Marshall, Turkey DID vote and APPROVED earlier today to allow our troops access; but just a few minutes ago, they NULLIFIED their vote and will reschedule it some other time.... Now talk about doing a 180*...someone got to them and applied pressure fairly quickly...

[firefighter16]

This whole thing is a mess. Maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea to back off a little. All of this is making the U.S. look like a bunch of hungry war mongers. The U.N. will never side with the U.S. if thats the way they view us.

[mf_dolphin]

M2, the initial reports were wrong on the vote. While there were more vote for than against, there wasn't a majority needed to approve the measure and so there will be another vote on Tuesday I believe. There will be a lot of arm twisting going on over the next few days.

[M2]

That's right Marshall, I see that. Turkey is in a precarious situation right now with a huge percentage of their countrymen opposing support. Well look at it from their perspective - they are nervous. They are nervous of retaliation for supporting the U.S. Find them on a map and look at their location in relation to Iraq - most the bordering countries are apprehensive because Captain Insaneo would hit anyone for any reason (even his own people); he has no regard for others/human life in general. Turkey will come around...

[coriolis]

I've sounded hawkish in previous posts, but am having some second thoughts.

I'm wondering too if we should wait a little while too. If we attack now, there will undoubtedly be more terrorist attacks on our soil. If we don't attack now, it leaves our options open. If Hussein does destroy those missles, perhaps the UN, backed up by the US military threat, can continue to push him further and further in the direction we want. In the mean time, there's lots we can and should be doing, like tracking down the terorists that are already here and getting a grip on the immigration situation. Of course if another terrorist attack happens, we should level Iraq without thinking twice. It's always been the USA's way to respond to attack, rather than to strike first. I think that's important to our image and conscious.

I heard that FDR knew that Japan was going to attack Pearl Harbor and allowed it to happen, so that the public opinion would favor entering WWII. (For some reason our aircraft carriers were not at pearl harbor. Perhaps leaving a bunch of obsolete battleships there made it look good) Our Congress didn't even declare war on Germany when we declared it against Japan. Hitler made his biggest mistake by unilaterally declaring war on the US! That's how we entered the European theatre. There may be some lessons in this. WWII was the last "good" war. Maybe it had to play out the way it did so that there was a clear "good guy" and a clear "bad guy." Hitler was killing people in his own country, breaking treaties, and making prohibited weapons long before Britian and France (and the US of course) got into the war. If I'm able, I'm going to do some more research on this.

[M2]

Well Coriolis, don't hold back now...someone's going to flinch and parts of Iraq will be toast. However I will disagree with the assessment that the USS Arizona and other ships in port in Honolulu were 'obsolete'. Many, many Navy personnel were unfortunately killed in that attack; we lost part of the fleet. I do not believe that the former administration considered them or the Naval personnel obsolete, and I'm sure many people here would take exception to that comment. We don't have a record of 'offering up' a sacraficial lamb if it entails a key Naval port, infrastructure, troops and civilians.

[mf_dolphin]

I think it's important to keep the missiles in perspective. While it's good that their destruction is underway, in the greater scope of things they are realy insignificant. It is yet another attempt by Saddam to appear to cooperate while avoiding the bigger issues with the chemical and biological weapons. We are talking about tons of lethal weapons that he hasn't accounted for.
The token scientist allowing to be interviewed without tape recorders and Iraqi minders is just the same type of token concession. Put yourselves in the position of the scientists. Saddam controls the lives of your children and family. What would you do? You would lie, conceal and deny that you knew anything. It's just human nature. I would do no different.

Saddam has a long history of playing games with the UN the and international community. If Blix had set the same kind of deadline with the chemical and biological weapons that he set with the missiles then we might of had a chance to avoid war. IMO Blix is allowing himself to be played with like a cat plays with a mouse. Saddam plays the game and does it very well. It is a very well planned and executed job of denial, delay. misdirection and he is just waiting for people to get tired of paying attention. He's doing a masterful job but President Bush isn't going to play this game much longer.

[coriolis]

Hmmm.
I may have gone off a bit too far there, especially with the personnel. Am I also wrong about FDR? I appreciate your coments. I sure don't know everything and will never pass an opportunity to learn something. I'm kind of thinking out loud in these posts and don't want to get swept up in a wave of emotion without thinking it through.

[mf_dolphin]

Coriolis, I believe that a lot of people, FDR included, just didn't think that the Japanese would actually attack without a formal declaration of hostilities or at least a breaking of diplomatic relations. Through an unfortunate set of timing mistakes and communications snafu's the attack happened while we were sitting on our asses. The carriers being at sea was actually a stroke of good fortune for us. During the early stages of WWII the battleships were actually held in a much higher regard by most senior military planners than was air power. WWII was the real coming of age for air power, much of it necessitated by the loss of the battleships at Pearl Harbor.

[coriolis]

MF, see my edited post above. So it probably wasn't done deliberately by FDR. That must have been some conspiriacy theory thing.
Are my other historical "facts" ok?

[mf_dolphin]

No problem at all Coriolis I have been a war history nut all my life. The great things about the board is that we all learn new things and get to disuss issues in an open environment!

[coriolis]

Heres another thought: Isn't the US big enough and strong enough and right enough that we will prevail no matter what? Being the only superpower brings some responsibilities. Are we the dumb giant that flails wildly at the insects buzzing around it? The best way to get a mosquito is to wait till it lands on your arm and starts to sting you. Then whack it! We need to make sure that we're being smart. There's an old saying that age and treachery will beat youth and enthusiasm. France is probably thinking that way. I just want to be sure that we are not running off half cocked.

[Aslkahuna]

In a report published in the Philippine Inquirer, the Abu Sayaaf-the notorious Filipino Islamic Terror group which has kidnapped and killed Americans and has ties to Al Qaida, has admitted that they are receiving financial support from source close to Saddam Hussein. Thus we are starting to see the Terrorist ties with Iraq. However, this is immaterial since the Europeans and even some Americans don't care about Americans killed by these people.

Steve

[M2]

"Abu Sayaaf-the notorious Filipino Islamic Terror group which has kidnapped and killed Americans and has ties to Al Qaida, has admitted that they are receiving financial support from source close to Saddam Hussein" - Aslkahuna

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Muslim separatists cut off power supplies to at least 18 million people in the southern Philippines by blowing up electricity pylons, authorities said:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/2803155.stm

A militant Muslim group in Indonesia has revived its paramilitary wing, one of the group's leaders said on Wednesday. Known for carrying out violent attacks on bars and nightclubs, the Laskar FPI section of the Islamic Defenders' Front (FPI) will re-form next month, Siroj Alwi said.:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/2800875.stm

Blasts caused by homemade explosives tore through cafeterias at China's top two universities within two hours of each other yesterday, injuring at least nine persons, police and school authorities said. No one immediately took responsibility for the blasts, which shocked students accustomed to relative safety on the Peking and Tsinghua university campuses…. Because of easy access to explosives, China has seen bombings linked to disgruntled workers, spurned lovers and Muslim separatists in recent years. But yesterday's bombs, which appeared to be linked, were the first at these universities.:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/world/20030226-82116644.htm
http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0228/p08s02-woap.html

A group calling itself “September 11” sent terror threats to the British High Commission and American and Australian embassies in New Zealand warning it had 55lbs of cyanide to use against US interests if Iraq was attacked, police said today. Although the group’s name contains a clear reference to the 2001 attacks in the US by al-Qaida, police spokesman John Neilson said authorities believe the threat came from within New Zealand… One of the letters, intercepted by postal workers, contained cyanide crystals, said counter-terrorism police chief Assistant Commissioner Jon White….:
http://breaking.examiner.ie/2003/02/27/story89824.html