STORM2K

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fK8ZcyupSi0[/youtube]

Ethanol has drawbacks, natural is cheap right now the wellhead price is 2.63/kcf, and electricity can be made a number of different ways. Which is better? You can change your mind if you like.

The only solution is electricity, because it's the only resource available indefinitely.

Electricity is great for moving lite things a short distance or very heavy things along way an innovation in power transformation might improve its usefullness for trucks. I saw a show on TV that proposed the use of a system of computerized pods to move people and product around.

Biofuel economy drives land values
By Jennifer Bremer
The biofuel economy is driving the value of land to record prices, with a steady increase expected in years to come.
Iowa State University farm economist Mike Duffy said the average value of an acre of farmland in Iowa increased by just over $700 during the past year, to an all-time high of $3,908.
More than a 100 percent increase has been seen in Iowa land values since the year 2000, when the average value was $1,857.

High Plains Journal

Since the dollar is based on land value there is a case for the further development of biofuels.

FedEx Electric Truck Story and Tour with Keshav Sondhi - Cleantech

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxiqFe2nCPY[/youtube]

CHICAGO, March 29, 2010 – FedEx Corp. (NYSE: FDX) today announced the expansion of its alternative-energy vehicle fleet with the first all-electric FedEx parcel delivery trucks in the United States. Four purpose-built electric trucks—optimized for electric operation from the wheels up—are slated to hit the road in the Los Angeles area starting in June 2010, joining more than 1,800 alternative-energy vehicles already in service for FedEx around the world.

http://news.van.fedex.com/node/16470

Extratropical94 wrote:The only solution is electricity, because it's the only resource available indefinitely.

How do you think that electricity is produced? Here's an interesting study:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ ... icles.html

With the advent of hydraulic fracturing, there will be an incredible abundance of oil and natural gas for Americans to burn for a long time to come. I would not be surprised for NG to overtake gasoline as a automotive fuel some time in the future. Just another slash at the enviromental movement that cried chicken little in the past about the end of the hydrocarbon era. Just about everything these chicken little's have cried about has not come to pass and has cost American consumers billions in unnessary expenses in going green. GM can't hardly sell any Volt electric cars because the pay back period in something like 25 years to break even.....MGC

American oil and natural gas for fuel.

Wind and increased solar as it becomes more efficient.

Nuclear and coal for electricity.

Hopefully within 50 years fusion power will make hydrocarbons obsolete.

Natural gas hydraulic fracturing carries the risk of poisoning our groundwater. That would be a biblical scale disaster.

Ethanol production on the other hand doesn't seem to be sustainable at current agricultural output levels, given the spikes in food prices it's caused.

I guess the answer has to be neither of them, though using them as a short-term replacement for Mid-East oil until true sustainable energy sources can be developed en masse would be fine.

wxman57 wrote:

Extratropical94 wrote:The only solution is electricity, because it's the only resource available indefinitely.

How do you think that electricity is produced? Here's an interesting study:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ ... icles.html

Sorry for responding so late, but I think both ethanol and natural gas are compounds that either have to be chemically produced or taken from the earth. This may prove to be an efficient solution for the present but those gas deposits will become smaller and smaller, whereas electricity can be generated from the influences of the sun and the moon aswell (solar power, wind energy, tidal power stations, ...).

somethingfunny wrote:....Ethanol production on the other hand doesn't seem to be sustainable at current agricultural output levels, given the spikes in food prices it's caused...

The development of food crop prices has more to do with the cost of farming, and foreign consumption, than what the farmer is growing. One of the last bastions of American manufacturing revolves around the farm. People will always need to eat, and the developing world wants to eat better. The U.S. is exporting more agricultural product every year. The amount of farmland is dropping due to environmental regulation and urban encroachment, but the amount of cropland is growing at the expense of range land.

http://www.ers.usda.gov/Data/Wheat/Year ... able01.htm

I do think that the time will come when our technology will be less energy dependent. I last year I bought a new washer and dryer that are super energy/water efficient and my year over year bills for both have gone down so much that the appliances have already paid for themselves . The manufacturer is called Fisher & Paykel . I'm only giving them a 3 star rating, but the payback was quick.

Honeywell UOP’s Renewable Jet Fuel Process technology under a contract from the U.S. Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) has produced a renewable military jet fuel for the U.S. military. The new non-food, industrial oilseed crop derived from Brassica carinata and is optimized for use as a biofuel. The crop is also uniquely suited for production in semi-arid areas that are unsuitable for food oilseed production, meaning it will not compete with food crops for land resources. The process technology is fully compatible with existing hydroprocessing technology commonly used in today’s refineries to produce transportation fuels. It produces an aviation biofuel that can be blended seamlessly with petroleum-based fuel. When used as part of as much as a 50 percent blend with petroleum-derived jet fuel, Green Jet Fuel is a drop-in replacement that requires no changes to the aircraft technology and meets all critical specifications for flight.

http://www.uop.com/processing-solutions ... -jet-fuel/

http://green.autoblog.com/2011/10/16/wi ... -in-vehic/

Turbocharging increases fuel economy by 20% by using exhausts gas to drive the turbine.

Global inventories of wheat and soybeans are falling more than forecast, while U.S. corn reserves head to a 16-year low, as farmers fail to keep pace with rising demand for food, livestock feed and biofuel.

http://mobile.bloomberg.com/news/2012-0 ... alter.html

The drought in the midwest is a big concern...expect US corn production to take a big dive this year if the drought continues......MGC

This is a good article that sums up most of the issue.

Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:52pm EDT

* U.S. corn, soy, wheat stocks lower than expected
* USDA cuts corn yield more than trade expected
* Despite drought, third-largest U.S. corn crop
* Traders see more cuts after early August field tours

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/07/ ... 6120120711

Fortunately farmers have a strategy to deal with drought. They use different hybrid varieties that
mature at different rates and all the planting is not done in the same week. A series of five plantings,
two weeks apart, is used to insure a successful harvest, but corn is a water intensive crop requiring
0.7 to 8.7 millimeters of water per day. There was some rain in June, almost none in July and the
higher temperatures will accelerate evaporation and transpiration.

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With the drought in the corn belt providing the potential for a substantial rise in
food prices the sustainability of the ethanol mandate is questionable.

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Week ending 07/19/2012: The Accumulated Precipitation is slowly filling in around the corn belt.

Not to down play the seriousness of the drought consequences there is the potential of a less bad
harvest. The season rainfall total for the 1976 analog year to date was 16 inches compared to this
years to date total of 22 inches. The 1976 harvest forecast was scaled back in July, but by
November the rain had filled in and the harvest came in 3 percent above 1975. The cautions
to this comment is that this harvest even if it comes in short it is still twice the 1976 harvest,
and there is no accounting to the heat damage. The growth temperature range for corn is between
41 and 95 degrees F. Corn can survive temperatures up to 110 degrees. A good harvest wants
some 90 degree days.

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