US/Iran Naval confrontation

[Chacor]

The point is, if the threats weren't made by Iranian speedboats (as now appears to be the case), the U.S. has some serious egg on its face. No doubt it was intended for the American boats to take action, but it could've been transmitted from anywhere, i.e. it may have been a third party trying to get the Americans to attack the Iranians.

[Stephanie]

The captain of the ship could've "ACCIDENTLY" ran over one of them. That's not an act of war.

I know you were making a joke, but that would still be viewed as an attacking move and would still be considered an act of war under international law.

It was a joke and I kind of figured that it still would be considered an act of war.

So now it seems like we have a conspiracy - someone else was egging the US on to attack Iran? Where would that audio come from and how would it have been recorded if it wasn't from the Iranians? The threat is specific to the boxes thrown in the water. Maybe it was just a pre-recorded message played by the speedboat operators?

[artist]

if this came from shore how do we know it was not part of the same planned event? Just because someone else raises that question does not make it so. How would they not be talking about the speed boats obviously charging the ships?

[Chacor]

How would they not be talking about the speed boats obviously charging the ships?

The speedboats weren't charging the ships if you ask the Iranians; that's the American point of view. And as someone who dislikes both the American and Iranian governments I don't buy the claim.

It would be very irresponsible (but understandable from an American view) to suggest that it's all Iran v. America in this because there's a fairly large possibility that a third party is involved.

[artist]

I doubt it. Why would they make such an announcement?? Unless they knew these boats were dropping boxes in front of our ships.

[Coredesat]

It would be very irresponsible (but understandable from an American view) to suggest that it's all Iran v. America in this because there's a fairly large possibility that a third party is involved.

I think this is pretty likely, given the number of groups in the region that are working to destabilize it/keep it unstable. Egging the Iran and the U.S. on toward armed conflict would go pretty far toward accomplishing that goal.

[mf_dolphin]

Let's see, so far the Iranians have:

1. Said it didn't happen at all.
2. Said that it was just a case of mis-identification.
3. Said it was just a "normal" incident by the Iranian Naval forces.
4. Said it was completely fabricated by the US.

From my point of view based on what I've read here the way I interpret things.

1. It was a deliberate and cordinated attempt to provoke a military reaction from the US ships based on the following:

A. The activity of the Iranian boats was far from normal especially in international waters. Approaching three obvious US naval combat ships in a menacing manner is foolhardy.
B. the fact that the audio may have come from a land based source and was obviously coordinated with the speedboat activity only leads crednce to the claim that this was a deliberate provocation.

Whether you like either government or not, there's no evidence of any "third party" involvement.

[Chacor]

"was obviously coordinated with the speedboat activity"

Uh... there's no proof of this. An inference could be made to suggest this, or it could be assumed, but there's certainly no actual proof that they're related.

[Cryomaniac]

It would be very irresponsible (but understandable from an American view) to suggest that it's all Iran v. America in this because there's a fairly large possibility that a third party is involved.

I wouldn't say there's a 'fairly large' probability, but it's possible. Mossad (i.e Israel) would have a motive to cause a war with Iran. *removes tinfoil hat*

[mf_dolphin]

"was obviously coordinated with the speedboat activity"

Uh... there's no proof of this. An inference could be made to suggest this, or it could be assumed, but there's certainly no actual proof that they're related.

There's a lot more evidence that they were coordinated than your 3rd party theory I've given the reasons for my viewpoint but all I see for your "fairly large possibility" is that you don't like either government.

[sunny]

Iran is looking for a fight but they want to do it in a way where they are the victim.

[Nimbus]

Based on the information the media has provided I can draw no conclusions.
The area where this incident took place is considered sensitive by Iran.
I'm sure skirmishes like this have happened in the past.

Could it be possible that the Iranian speed boats were dropping boxes along a line to provide a visual reference for the channel border?

[Chacor]

Iran acknowledges the incident occurred in international waters, though.

Here's the latest BBC analysis:

The admission by the US Navy that Iranian speedboats might not have been the source of an apparent threat to attack American ships in the Gulf is a significant move that raises new fears about the chances of unintended clashes in the region.

It has worrying similarities with the incident in 1988 when, in the same Strait of Hormuz, the USS Vincennes shot down an Iranian civilian airliner, having failed to monitor the radio traffic properly.

The crew of the Vincennes became wrongly convinced that the airliner, an Airbus with 290 people on board, all of whom died, was an Iranian fighter jet.

...

The US government later suggested that one factor at play on the Vincennes was a condition called "scenario fulfilment" in which military personnel are under such pressure that they expect and then execute a particular scenario, as if in an exercise.

Whether the same expectation was at play in this latest incident is not clear.

What is clear is that there are grave doubts about who uttered the warning picked up by the US ships. A deep voice was heard to say: "I am coming at you. You will explode after a few minutes."

The video released by the US implied that the warning was part of a series of transmissions to the ships from the Iranian craft.

It turns out that the warning was added onto the video. It was a radio recording made separately.

Experts say it could have come from another ship in the area or from a radio transmitter on shore. The channel used by the Iranian vessels to make their inquiries is an open one.

...

The Iranian video does not show their boats buzzing close (200m or so) to the Americans.

The US said that in any case the Iranian speedboats acted aggressively. Iran's version is that this was a routine check by its sailors.

This goes beyond the back and forth of a propaganda battle, in which once again the Iranians show themselves to be masters.

It recalls the ease with which they ran rings round the Royal Navy when they captured British sailors and marines off Iraq last year, exposed them to damaging publicity before releasing them with handshakes by their president.

The real concern is that a possibly misread radio transmission should be at the heart of this incident, nearly 20 years after the Vincennes disaster.

Emphasis is mine.

[Nimbus]

This may help the US in the propaganda war sometime in the future. An Iranian video of US warships crossing a line of floating reference buoys would carry less weight now that Iran has apparantly admitted they are "drawing the line" in international waters.



The destroyer captain may also have perceived the Iranian action as a method to reduce his submarine detection capability.
Iran has a new submarine program based on Chinese tech.

http://www.conservative.org/columnists/ ... 1122bb.asp

[Cryomaniac]

Iran is looking for a fight but they want to do it in a way where they are the victim.

That is generally the best way to start a fight though.

[Ed Mahmoud]

Coming that close in a speed boat, if one listened to Ron Paul last night (not trying to get political) isn't a threat, unless one remembers what an explosive packed dinghy was able to do to the USS Cole. From what I understand, the regular Iranian Navy, and the speedboats operated by the fanatic Iranian Revolutionary Guard aren't exactly the same thing, or have the same command structure.


About the USS Vincennes and speed boats, and the Airbus, there is a chance that it wasn't an accident, at least not on the Iranians' part. The Vincennes was being attacked by Iranian speedboats with machine guns and grenade launchers when the Airbus took off from a joint use military and civilian airport. The 5"/54 main gun had malfunctioned on the Vincennes, so they were battling back against speedier and more maneuverable craft with similar weapons to what the Iranians had, and then an airplane takes off from an airport where military traffic departs, and flies in their general direction.


Recall, that during the Iran-Iraq war, Iran ordered thousands of plastic keys, called them 'keys to heaven', and gave them to boys as young as twelve to walk through minefields ahead of regular army units, so the more valuable trained soldiers would not be the ones blown up by the mines. The regime there doesn't exactly have the same general regard to human life most Westerners have.

[x-y-no]

You know ... in all the years of the cold war, US and Soviet warships did this kind of provocative testing of each others defenses all the time.

The fact is that had these Iranian gunboats (looked like cigarette boats to me - totally unarmored but obviously could carry explosives for a suicide attack) actually headed towards the destroyers they would have been shredded to bits by the Vulcan Phalanx guns aimed at them.

The only reason this kind of attack worked against USS Cole is because they didn't maintain proper security. Not much chance of that happening in the Straits of Hormuz.

Missile attacks and mines are a different story - they could pose a real threat to warships. Also, this kind of attack could work very well against commercial shipping.

[mf_dolphin]

Iran is looking for a fight but they want to do it in a way where they are the victim.

They pull this kind of stunt again and they very well may get at least part of their wish....

[Pburgh]

Would we still get "egg on our face"?

[fwbbreeze]

Amazing that a few in this thread are trying to place some blame with this situation on the American warships. Its blatently obvious the Iranians tried to invoke an American reaction and they just about got their wish. Personally, I hope they try this again (they won't) and get their dingy's shredded to pieces.

Their would have been no "Egg on the America face" even if the radio transmission originated from some place other than the Iranian boats. And with all due respect Chacor, I would rather destroy a bunch of Iranian pontoon boats than go through another incident like the bombing of the USS Cole.