Rumsfeld calls Iraqi resistance "a surprise"

[Stephanie]

Regardless, neither incident should've happened.

[azskyman]

War brings out the best, and the worst, in all of us.

I remember on my way to a hamlet called Ban Me Thuot in South Vietnam, 1970. I was but 24 years old at the time...one of the oldest on the deuce-and-a-half we were riding in.

We passed a firebase surrounded by concertina (coiled) wire, and on about a half mile stretch of that wire were about six or seven fully naked bodies of former Viet Cong soldiers. They were stripped and layed on their backs against that wire in such fashion that animals could not readily get to them, but the sun and elements could....as a reminder to any other would-be attackers that this might be what they had to look forward to if they attempted to overrun the men at this base.

Grotesque as it was...some troops onboard our truck said things like "all-right, man, those are the best lookin' Charlies I've seen all week!" Like us, those dead men had families back somewhere. They were degraded and laid on that wire for the purposes of expressing anger, unloading frustration, and as deterring future aggression against our own.

How well I remember all the displaced anger around me that year. We took it out on each other. And we took it out on Charlie. At Mi Lai and other places, we took it out on women and children too. We killed them and we burned them.

War does that to young soldiers...and while I do not in any way condone such acts against other human beings...I do understand the motivation behind them. War desensitizes you in ways you never want to admit. It is neither sanitary nor PG-rated. It is ugly, and how people react to it can be ugly too.

It is easy to talk about the resistence being underestimated. But the truth is that they are fighting for their own existence at a time when we and the "civil Iraqi" folks are attempting to train and encourage and sculpt out a better future. Their fear can drive them to take advantage of that.

In the end, I believe there is a commitment that remains steadfast to the good people of Iraq. And while I am a Republican, I shudder at the tone that Rumsfeld and others can portray. Like the soldiers themselves, he becomes desensitized still more and shows his own humanity.

I cannot excuse it...but I do understand it.

[sunnyday]

My sentiments exactly, Stephanie.

[Aslkahuna]

am a registered Republican but that does not mean that I'm going blindly support an idiotic statement made by the Administration no matter who makes it.

Steve

[Stephanie]

Thank you again Steve for you thoughts and experiences. I do understand the soldier's frustrations and where it came from.

I can't imagine the horrors that you and thousands of others have seen at Vietnam.

[streetsoldier]

Don't try, Steph...we are still sorting it all out 30+ years later.

[azskyman]

...and some never do sort it out, Bill. They lose the ability to distinguish between right and wrong, good and bad, human and inhuman.

...and they become a sad postscript to a tragic episode. So too will some who come home from Iraq.

I was one of the lucky ones. My duty was relatively secure. But I was stupid nonetheless. I injected myself into the heart of the community and worked with the South Vietnamese on a regular basis....with but only one other M-16 between me and the enemy. I am still amazed that I wasn't captured or killed while wandering off to parts of town where my jeep driver was the only other soldier for miles.

I came back a better man, I think...but why I came back when others did not still troubles me sometimes.

[streetsoldier]

That must be a common thread for veterans, Steve..."why am I still alive?"

Only God Himself knows the answer...and I trust that I will, soon enough, in His good Time.

[Guest]

Your posts are so hypocritical. It's seems to me, you hate America and all we stand for. If it wasn't for us you would still be under Benito Mussolinis rule. My view is we should stop helping ungrateful foreigners and let you all fend for yourself.

My post hypocrital? What about a war on terror that is fighting everything but terror?
WW2 give us freedom. What freedom? The freedom to decide when it is right or wrong, or the freedom to follow our liberators anyway? By the way, let me remind you once again that when allied landed in Sicily in 1943 they were just attacking an enemy state. Still under Mussolini? You know Mussolini? I can tell you Benito was so much far away from Saddam that many here still remember him as a dictator yes, but with people in mind and heart first. Of course, being a dictator he knew only one way to dial with oppositors or different ideas. He made a big mistake: believed Hitler to be the winning choice, anyway if it wasn't for you, it would have been for us. We would have arrived to a civil war and freedom would have been resumed, later, with more deaths. We had one actually, after sep8th. US, scared to have a country (or more than one) that after Nazi/Fasci period could turn towards Russia, strongly pumped energy in avoiding Russia or Communism to be the winning party.
Now you claim that bill back. We should close our eys, shut our mouths and just follow our ancient liberators. Well, I like many things from USA, I dislike many others. I don't like death penalty, I find strange that a place that want to rule the world has metal detectors in force at schools. I find strange while you are put under arrest if you have a can of beer in your car, you can easily buy and hold a gun when you're 16...
I don't hate America and Americans, I'm just against the war in Iraq.
I see that nothing has been done against real terror. I've seen a report: How many agents are in force to check if any company is sneaking Cuba embargo? 20. How many agents are in force to check if any company has business and relations with AlQaeda and its supporters? 4.
What a war on terror!

[vbhoutex]

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. The Bible tells us that, doesn't it? War is beyond terrible, but there is no excuse for either our soldiers or the Iraqi soldiers to commit atrocities.

I would hardly call what our troops did atrocities Compared to killing, burning and mutilating civilian contractors and soldiers. BTW these men aren't Iraqi soldiers they are terrorists.

Johnathan, they are also human beings!!! COWARDLY, USELESS, HUMAN BEINGS IMHO but human beings nonetheless!!!!(the cowards, not normal everyday Iraqi's) I share your TOTAL AND COMPLETE FRUSTRATION WITH THE WAY THINGS ARE GOING AND THE LITTLE OR NO THANKS AT ALL THE US GETS FOR BASICALLY TAKING CARE OF THE WORLD. However, I can never condone wrongful acts against other humans. Dig deep in the wonderful heart I know you have and then tell me you can. Many of your statements are correct but even humiliation is a form of atrocity IMHO.

[j]

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. The Bible tells us that, doesn't it? War is beyond terrible, but there is no excuse for either our soldiers or the Iraqi soldiers to commit atrocities.

True......but the difference is our soldiers will be held accountable.

[Stephanie]

Paolo - There are many different facets to the war on terror. I think that what we are saying here is that we still have alot of work to do and I'm not just saying the United States.

[Guest]

Paolo - There are many different facets to the war on terror. I think that what we are saying here is that we still have alot of work to do and I'm not just saying the United States.

I'm with you Steph, no one can be called apart after 9/11. We are all americans, all spanish, all turkish, all arabians. Terrorism has no justification under any flag.
Unfortunately, we are not acting the right way. War to Iraq was and is a big mistake, but now we're there and we cannot leave Iraq to its own doom.
In any case we cannot make mistakes such as humiliating arabian prisoners and local population. As soon as you can't tell the difference between liberators and oppressors we have lost. We all, not only americans.

[stormchazer]

No one is making excuses. The military had already been investigating this and our preparing to have charges brought on those involved. I find it funny that anyone anti-Bush will jump on this story as if to say that this proves what scum we and this administration are. There are bad people everywhere and the military will deal with those involved harshly, though I am sure not harsh enough for liberals.

As for Rumsfield being surprised....we were surprised the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor. We were surprised Hitler counter-attacked in the Ardennes. We were surprised that the Chinese crossed the Chosen reservoir. We were surprised to find missiles in Cuba. We were shocked at Tet. We were surprised at the World Trade Center....twice.
The Fog of War is full of surprises.

How we react to these surprises is most important.

[sunnyday]

I think we are playing with word choice here. Atrocities to you must not be what they are to me and many others. And just because of what the Iraqis did in the way of inhumane behavior, we are not supposed to follow suit The old expression"Lie down with dogs; get up with fleas" seems appropriate here.

[stormchazer]

I think we are playing with word choice here. Atrocities to you must not be what they are to me and many others. And just because of what the Iraqis did in the way of inhumane behavior, we are not supposed to follow suit The old expression"Lie down with dogs; get up with fleas" seems appropriate here.

So in your opinion, is the military not acting forceful enough in investigating what occured?

[streetsoldier]

A far better proverb would have been, "When you want to kill a nest of snakes, get meaner snakes."

I do NOT condone what happened in that Iraqi prison, as stated elsewhere...but at the same time, we can NOT fight, and win, a war with people who have NO scruples unless we are prepared, in battle, to use the "force plus one" doctrine....hit them with the same methods they use against us, only more often, and harder.

"THEY won't ever quit...neither should WE."

[Rainband]

September 11, 2001 Where were their rights!!!!!