Thought provoking article

[kevin]

Also for the love of all things holy, do not advocate the arming of students. War is chaotic. They might have been able to stop this shooter, or those who helped might have been shot by the police, or they may have simply added to the death toll.

I'm fairly conservative when it comes to using force to defend oneself. I have no delusions however as many seem to that with the availability of weapons violent crimes decline.

[LSU2001]

Kevin,
While I cannot provide unbiased evidence that gun laws increase crime and I will not quote the NRA nor other pro-gun orgainzations that claim such evidence. I would like to see some type of clear evidence of the contrary. I would like to see that where gun laws are strict and the citizenery are disarmed there is a decline in violent crime. Not just gun crime mind you but violent crime. Please do not cite England and other overseas countries but compelling evidence here in the US. Links to stats will be fine.

It is my belief and my belief only that violent crimes do not see a dramatic decrease when the guns are pulled from citizens that are law abiding in the main. I firmly belive that the criminals will find and use guns period. I further believe that when there is little doubt in the mind of the criminal that the victim is unarmed there is little to deter violence. However, if there is a good probability that the intended victim is armed there is a greater deterrence factor.

As far as the belief that more guns in the hands of the public cause more crime. I guess that I personally am a ticking timebomb in your opinion. I personally own and regularly shoot. SKS assault rifles for sport not hunting. I also own several hunting rifles, shotguns and assorted handguns. I have never once contemplated using any of these weapons in anger. Howeve, I have had to brandish a weapon in defense of myself and family and I will tell you (at least in my case) once the potential attacker realized that I was both armed and prepared to use deadly force his main concern was to escape as quickly as possible. Criminals like most predators seek out the weak and defenseless. A strong show of force and resolve will usually cause the aggressor to seek weaker prey.

I have been in this situation and while it was anything but pleasant, It convinced me that being armed is much preferable to being unarmed.

AS far as schools go esp. High schools, Ted Nugent is an idiot. High school students do not have the mental capability to RESPONSIBLY carry firearms in a school setting. I will, however, introduce the idea that up until about 25 years ago it was rather common to find hunting rifles and shotguns in student cars and pickup trucks esp. in the rural south. This uptick in gun violence really began with the upswing in gang activity and the drug trade. IMHO, it also corresponds to the beakdown of the family and the fact that both parents (if even living in the home) today are forced (for the most part) to work outside the home. This situation has created a generation of latchkey kids that have had very little supervision and have had to raise themselves as best they could. I really think we need to look beyond the gun/gun control issue and attack the underlying societal problems that make young people today much more prone to violent acts. You and I will never stem the violence by any simple and legislative action. We must embrace a code of decency and a code of moral and personal responsibility if we wish to have young people behave as civilized human beings rather than warring factions.

My opinion only,
TIm

[coriolis]

I was afraid that Ted Nugent's stink bomb was going to ruin this thread.

Nice work staying on topic.

[kevin]

LSU,

I agree in the main with everything you've said. Gun laws which giving up weapons would only harm law abiding citizens to lose their weapons. The problem in the United States is that guns are everywhere and unlike in Europe this would not fix the problem. We are a militarized society with extremely violent gangs. Our police officers in major cities operate more like militaries in many countries than law enforcement agencies, out of compelling reasons of self defense. So the solution isn't to ban guns. There isn't a solution in fact that I have in mind, only an undermining of the notion that owning guns as an individual is a right protected under the constitution.

Personally I know that many people live with guns all the time and never have to use them against people. Before you will recall that I support the use of handguns in protecting one's home and family. I'm not against concealed weapons on principle. Only for responsible gun ownership. I've been around guns all of my life since I was a kid, guns which were loaded, and never once have I even thought in my most angry moments to use them. Most people are stable. Unfortunately a sizable minority has no idea how to peacefully live with their peers, and doesn't have the mental restraint to know that sometimes things suck and one needs to move on.

[LSU2001]

Bravo,

We are indeed on the same page for the most part. Our fundemental difference is in the "meaning" of the 2nd amendment. I can live with that and I appreciate your well thought out and sensible arguements.
Again Bravo,
Tim

[x-y-no]

Bravo,

We are indeed on the same page for the most part. Our fundemental difference is in the "meaning" of the 2nd amendment. I can live with that and I appreciate your well thought out and sensible arguements.
Again Bravo,
Tim

I think we're all fairly well on the same page. I'm certainly not anti-gun, even for youngsters - when I was 16 I got myself a Marlin 444, and the next year I got a Dan Wesson 357 Magnum revolver. I sold those when I moved up north for a few years, but when I move down here again I picked up a 12 gauge (Ithaca police special) for self-defense (great boat gun - and yes I had to use it on two occasions to defend against attempted boardings) and a Ruger 22LR for target practice. Today I still have the Ruger and also a Beretta 9000S 40S&W for home defense.

But unlike most gun owners I know down here, I've always taken training in handling these weapons seriously, even back when I was a teen. There's a dismaying preponderance of idiots out there.

A little off on a tangent, but it's my heritage so it comes to mind - ultra-liberal Sweden has mandatory military service for all able men ages 18 to 40. Boot camp and specialty training at 18, refresher training every year. On-call men keep their fully automatic weapons at home (or at least they did - I admit I haven't kept current on what's happened since the Soviet Union fell). When I was 18, I had to choose whether to go there and serve in order to keep my Swedish citizenship or stay here to keep my American citizenship (I was dual until then). Anyway, my point with this tangent is that there's nothing inherently liberal or conservative about the issue.

[Stephanie]

[quote="LSU2001

I will have to respectfully disagree with the part about the judges being wrong. While I am by no means any type of legal scholar, having read the opinion and some of the supporting documentation I find the judges arguements quite compelling. As far as Cho not being qualified to have a gun. I would think that a background check should have found his previous arrests and commitments to a mental instution. It seems that the gun control laws that instituted the background checks did not work in this case. YOu are right he should have been denied the right to purchase a firearm. I think this shows the relative ineffectiveness of gun control laws when they cannot even enforce the already existing provisions.
JMHO
Tim[/quote]

That's a part of my whole point. I'm not 100% against ownership of guns. I do understand that probably the majority of the citizens that own guns legally take gun safety seriously, etc. I think that we still need the controls listed above to help prevent people like Cho from owning them IF THE LAWS ARE ENFORCED. Hopefully, if that gun shop broke the law, they should be shut down permanently.

Can people still get guns illegally? Absolutely! I believe though if someone possesses a gun illegally they should automatically go to jail. I believe that the laws that we do have need to be enforced in order to make a dent in the situation.