I just heard on WLOX that they will have their special that they will be airing tomorrow night (Monday from 6:00 pm to 8:00 pm central time) on-line with streaming video. Don't know how it will be, but it is a local station in Biloxi.
Watch if you would care to!
Mary
Oh yeah, ....duh
http://www.wlox.com
WLOX Biloxi Streaming Video Katrina 6 mnths later 02/27/2006
Moderator: S2k Moderators
MSRobi911 wrote:If anybody was watching, when they were talking to Nolan Goodwin, the Deputy Fire Chief in Pascagoula as they were tearing down his home, they were actually on my slab next door while doing the filming. The FEMA trailer you saw on the left is our "home sweet home".
Mary
I saw your trailer!! It is a small world, isn't it... I can't believe that Pascagoula hasn't gotten more national attention then it has??? I only live 25 miles away and had no real idea of what y'all went through (are going through) until last night. Katrina's forces were definitely far-reaching...
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Audrey2Katrina
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Was that the scene with this crane-like vehicle taking huge "bites" out of the house? Saw that--and yup, I had no idea it was as bad as that so far away. But I gotta give that guy credit... he had a very positive attitude given a very negative scenario.
A2K
A2K
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MSRobi911
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Audrey2Katrina and Ixolib,
Yes, it is that bad here in Pascagoula. And no we get no attention. I raised wholly hell at WLOX when they aired their special about Katrina and the MS Coast because they included only 2 clips from Pascagoula at all. Dave Vincent assured me that more would be included in the extended coverage on their DVD that they were selling. HA! They had 1 interview with a man that lives on the Beach and that was the extended coverage. Shoot even Senator Trent Lott's 150+ year old home was totally gone like mine and Dickie Scruggs (The Tobacco Lawyer) his home was half gone on one side, his "gym" was totally gone and his down stairs of what was left was blown out, the Corp of Engineers tore the rest down this past week. All the homes on Beach Blvd. were either completely destroyed or just a few 2 X 4's up with a top floor maybe. Mine and my next door neighbors on the West side of me were gone down to the slab, Nolan's was there, but his first floor was totally blown out with the floor falling through and his walls on each side of his bulging, if we had had another even tropical storm I am sure it would have completely gone down. Right now, there are no houses left on my block in front or in back. I am only 1 street off the Beach, one house was in front of me and then a street and then me. I certainly have a beautiful view, but it is so sad every time I step outside the trailer when I think of how beautiful this neighborhood was and now will never be again. To the East of me there was an entire subdivision of the old "navy" homes, little houses about 1,000 square feet if that much, but they were all blown through and have all just about been torn down. Nolan is the only neighbor that we have for a couple of blocks either way. We do have as an added benefit (?) the demolition crew living next to us on our other neighbors property that starts ever morning at 6:00 am sharp and ends about 5:30 pm every day. You hear the beeps every morning of them backing out the big trucks and equipment and feel the ground shake as the big machines go down the road. They are a nice bunch of guys and haven't caused any problems. So we are not totally alone.
I keep saying I'm going to go and take pictures of all the empty lots and can't remember to buy batteries for my digital camera, maybe I will do that after Mass in the morning, remember its Ash Wednesday for all you Catholics out there....go get your ashes and let everybody tell you your forehead has dirt on it all day
!
Ixolib, the Storm Surge here in Pascagoula was estimated at 27-30 feet so Katrina had far reaching arms. You know even Bayou La Batre, AL was heavily damaged as they had a 15' storm surge up Mobile Bay. There are so many boats up in the woods and in the trees around Bayou La Batre they don't have hardly anybody out fishing. If they didn't have insurance to help them, the Corp won't touch them and the Coast Guard said that they are not endangering a waterway (since they aren't actually in the water but in the trees and woods) they can't remove them. Some country, I think it was Scandinavia or somewhere overseas has sent a couple of hundred thousand dollars to help get these boats back in the water, that's something, our own government won't help these people but a Foreign Country has stepped it to do what is needed! I am moved by all the generosity of everyone in the US and the world in what they have done for us.
I'm glad ya'll got to watch and they were actually filming the live shots of the Mayor of Pascagoula and Moss Point and the County Supervisor right in front of my house but out on Beach Blvd. The house that was there previously was a 3 story house with a complete real elevator, it was some home, nothing left but the slab you saw. I told Robi to run over there and run around behind them and smile and wave like all the other fools you see, but he wouldn't do it
Mary
Yes, it is that bad here in Pascagoula. And no we get no attention. I raised wholly hell at WLOX when they aired their special about Katrina and the MS Coast because they included only 2 clips from Pascagoula at all. Dave Vincent assured me that more would be included in the extended coverage on their DVD that they were selling. HA! They had 1 interview with a man that lives on the Beach and that was the extended coverage. Shoot even Senator Trent Lott's 150+ year old home was totally gone like mine and Dickie Scruggs (The Tobacco Lawyer) his home was half gone on one side, his "gym" was totally gone and his down stairs of what was left was blown out, the Corp of Engineers tore the rest down this past week. All the homes on Beach Blvd. were either completely destroyed or just a few 2 X 4's up with a top floor maybe. Mine and my next door neighbors on the West side of me were gone down to the slab, Nolan's was there, but his first floor was totally blown out with the floor falling through and his walls on each side of his bulging, if we had had another even tropical storm I am sure it would have completely gone down. Right now, there are no houses left on my block in front or in back. I am only 1 street off the Beach, one house was in front of me and then a street and then me. I certainly have a beautiful view, but it is so sad every time I step outside the trailer when I think of how beautiful this neighborhood was and now will never be again. To the East of me there was an entire subdivision of the old "navy" homes, little houses about 1,000 square feet if that much, but they were all blown through and have all just about been torn down. Nolan is the only neighbor that we have for a couple of blocks either way. We do have as an added benefit (?) the demolition crew living next to us on our other neighbors property that starts ever morning at 6:00 am sharp and ends about 5:30 pm every day. You hear the beeps every morning of them backing out the big trucks and equipment and feel the ground shake as the big machines go down the road. They are a nice bunch of guys and haven't caused any problems. So we are not totally alone.
I keep saying I'm going to go and take pictures of all the empty lots and can't remember to buy batteries for my digital camera, maybe I will do that after Mass in the morning, remember its Ash Wednesday for all you Catholics out there....go get your ashes and let everybody tell you your forehead has dirt on it all day
!
Ixolib, the Storm Surge here in Pascagoula was estimated at 27-30 feet so Katrina had far reaching arms. You know even Bayou La Batre, AL was heavily damaged as they had a 15' storm surge up Mobile Bay. There are so many boats up in the woods and in the trees around Bayou La Batre they don't have hardly anybody out fishing. If they didn't have insurance to help them, the Corp won't touch them and the Coast Guard said that they are not endangering a waterway (since they aren't actually in the water but in the trees and woods) they can't remove them. Some country, I think it was Scandinavia or somewhere overseas has sent a couple of hundred thousand dollars to help get these boats back in the water, that's something, our own government won't help these people but a Foreign Country has stepped it to do what is needed! I am moved by all the generosity of everyone in the US and the world in what they have done for us.
I'm glad ya'll got to watch and they were actually filming the live shots of the Mayor of Pascagoula and Moss Point and the County Supervisor right in front of my house but out on Beach Blvd. The house that was there previously was a 3 story house with a complete real elevator, it was some home, nothing left but the slab you saw. I told Robi to run over there and run around behind them and smile and wave like all the other fools you see, but he wouldn't do it
Mary
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Audrey2Katrina
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Margie
"the Storm Surge here in Pascagoula was estimated at 27-30 feet"
No, it wasn't. The storm tide was 15-21 ft in Jackson County. Pascagoula received 16-18 ft, and on the SW corner of the county it was 20-21 ft. The surge would be 1-2 ft less than that (subtract high tide), and, along the shore, there would also be a significant amount of wave action to subtract from the total storm tide height (wave action was felt as far inland as Pinecrest however, but at that location maybe 6 inches of wave action).
"Katrina had far reaching arms. You know even Bayou La Batre, AL was heavily damaged"
That is correct.
"as they had a 15' storm surge up Mobile Bay"
No...10-11 ft storm tide in Mobile Bay.
No, it wasn't. The storm tide was 15-21 ft in Jackson County. Pascagoula received 16-18 ft, and on the SW corner of the county it was 20-21 ft. The surge would be 1-2 ft less than that (subtract high tide), and, along the shore, there would also be a significant amount of wave action to subtract from the total storm tide height (wave action was felt as far inland as Pinecrest however, but at that location maybe 6 inches of wave action).
"Katrina had far reaching arms. You know even Bayou La Batre, AL was heavily damaged"
That is correct.
"as they had a 15' storm surge up Mobile Bay"
No...10-11 ft storm tide in Mobile Bay.
Last edited by Margie on Wed Mar 01, 2006 12:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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vbhoutex
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Margie, where are you getting your information from? You are disagreeing with people that lived through it and are living it now I don't think they have any reason to exxagerate the numbers. You are obvuisly more knowledgeable about the "technical" terms involved, but when most people think of surge they do think of the highest level reached. Maybe a little less of a "know it better than you" attitude is in order here? JMHO
I have also seen the numbers they are stating. don't know how official they were though.
I have also seen the numbers they are stating. don't know how official they were though.
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Margie
Just stating the facts is not a "know it better than you attitude." It is actually a "state the facts and be accurate" attitude. Of course, you could always move to Kansas, where one of the local school boards redefined science so that it is no longer limited to the search for natural explanations of phenomena.
Where am I getting my info from. Well, let's see: the coastal survey of high water marks (an unprecendented number were measured for Katrina, by the way), an NHC surge expert (who, gratifyingly, confirmed my analysis that the highest surge level was Cat 4 around St Louis Bay), the hindcast surge info that was generated by the combination of the HWM and SLOSH, information from Jackson County emergency management, some of the newspaper articles reporting storm tide heights, all of which tallied with my own analysis.
I have already posted, somewhere on this board, all the detailed information on the surge numbers. Detailed surge info has been available and out there on the internet now for some months.
I don't suppose you've considered how dangerous it is for people to post information such as surge heights were 27-30 ft in Pascagoula. When the next storm comes along, someone who believes that might decide to ride out the storm if they hear a surge of 20 ft is expected...and might not survive. Eighteen feet of surge left 5 feet of water in my brother's house, just south of Ingalls Ave. All of residential Pascagoula will flood, to some extent, in only a Cat 2 level surge.
Where am I getting my info from. Well, let's see: the coastal survey of high water marks (an unprecendented number were measured for Katrina, by the way), an NHC surge expert (who, gratifyingly, confirmed my analysis that the highest surge level was Cat 4 around St Louis Bay), the hindcast surge info that was generated by the combination of the HWM and SLOSH, information from Jackson County emergency management, some of the newspaper articles reporting storm tide heights, all of which tallied with my own analysis.
I have already posted, somewhere on this board, all the detailed information on the surge numbers. Detailed surge info has been available and out there on the internet now for some months.
I don't suppose you've considered how dangerous it is for people to post information such as surge heights were 27-30 ft in Pascagoula. When the next storm comes along, someone who believes that might decide to ride out the storm if they hear a surge of 20 ft is expected...and might not survive. Eighteen feet of surge left 5 feet of water in my brother's house, just south of Ingalls Ave. All of residential Pascagoula will flood, to some extent, in only a Cat 2 level surge.
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Margie wrote:"the Storm Surge here in Pascagoula was estimated at 27-30 feet"
No, it wasn't. The storm tide was 15-21 ft in Jackson County. Pascagoula received 16-18 ft, and on the SW corner of the county it was 20-21 ft. The surge would be 1-2 ft less than that (subtract high tide), and, along the shore, there would also be a significant amount of wave action to subtract from the total storm tide height (wave action was felt as far inland as Pinecrest however, but at that location maybe 6 inches of wave action).
"Katrina had far reaching arms. You know even Bayou La Batre, AL was heavily damaged"
That is correct.
"as they had a 15' storm surge up Mobile Bay"
No...10-11 ft storm tide in Mobile Bay.
Bold above proves you are wrong. The surge hit at high tide. So ADD to the high tide not subtract.
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Margie
You misunderstand...and that's because the usage is not clearly-defined, so it can definitely be a little confusing.
Sometimes "surge" is used as shorthand for "storm tide." It's just easier to type. Usually talking about storm tide. This substitution is very common in more casual usage. To be completely accurate I was referring to storm tide, however the layperson is more familiar with the term "surge." All the numbers from the FEMA info are storm tide, not surge, but on a lot of their documentation it does say "surge."
I mean even when I am talking to a met specializing in this area we will use the word "surge" when we both know we are talking about storm tide.
Storm tide includes surge, high tide, wave action, and wave runup. For instance all the HWM are storm tide. All the numbers from the FEMA info are storm tide, not surge. I believe the oft-quoted max surge height from Camille is actually a storm tide HWM.
Even if Kat had not come just after high tide, but had come later, closer to low tide, the high tide would still have not had a real chance to "run out" and would still be considered part of the storm surge.
Here is a link to a good overall visual of the storm tide...in this map the storm tide elevations are referred to as "surge elevations"...a good example of the same kind of interchangeable usage. You just have to keep track of the context is all.
http://www.fema.gov/hazards/floods/reco ... erview.pdf
There are a lot more links in some other post I made a couple of months ago.
By the way this clearly shows the inundation heights between 16-18 ft for Pascagoula...and the green stars refer to HWM that were taken there, which are provided on the FEMA detail maps. Please feel free to look them all up. So if you still feel that I am wrong, please feel free to also contact FEMA and let them know they were wrong (the specific FEMA contact is Todd Davison), and that all the skilled surveyors who spent several months along the coastline measuring the HWM must have no idea what they are doing,... and don't forget the NHC storm surge unit and hurricane specialists, and NWSFO at Slidell, who used the same SLOSH runs that generated the warnings and were used as input into the overview map, referenced above. In fact, I'd be delighted to see anyone follow up with any of these experts and come back with an actual quote that the surge in Pascagoula was 27-30 ft. If you are local I'd start with Butch Loper, the Jackson County EM, who is still working out of the wreak of an EOC, but don't be shy. Just pick up the phone and call the experts. They're all very busy but extremely accomodating.
The actual "surge" heights would be the high tide values subtracted from the numbers given on the overview. At any particular location the surge would be the storm tide minus high tide value, wave action, and wave runup.
The FEMA flood inundation data is extremely accurate for a very large percentage of the square miles documented; this is because of the mathematical model they use, combining LIDAR data with the sparse HWM data.
Whether this is important or not depends on what information you are looking for. Also sometimes it is not possible to be able to separate out the different values (for instance, there is an outside HWM, but even if there is an inside HWM, if there was still some wave runup inside, then it is not possible to accurately know the actual surge height there, although the HWM is known).
Storm surge analysis requires separating the surge from the other components of the storm tide; also separating out freshwater flooding from salt-water flooding. For instance there was freshwater flooding considerably inland along the Pascagoula River basin beyond the point where salt water surge inundation occured (the surge acted as a hydraulic dam). And the salt water inundation went inland quite a ways past where usually the water is no longer brackish; a good 5 to 10 miles I would guess. This would have killed the freshwater plants that grow along the shoreline in these locations. Surge analysis would include this type of information and there are coastal impact studies going on right now to determine the impact of the salt water and fresh water flooding along the river, as well as other type of impact studies (barrier island studies):
http://coastal.er.usgs.gov/hurricanes/katrina/
Here is an excellent link with a lot of good graphics with more detail about storm surge in general (thanks, Mark), which also refers to the storm tide as surge:
http://hurricanetrack.com/ncstormsurge/srginf.html
In some areas the difference between high and low tide is quite a few feet of difference, and so is a significant factor in the surge height (not the case with the MS Gulf coast).
Sometimes "surge" is used as shorthand for "storm tide." It's just easier to type. Usually talking about storm tide. This substitution is very common in more casual usage. To be completely accurate I was referring to storm tide, however the layperson is more familiar with the term "surge." All the numbers from the FEMA info are storm tide, not surge, but on a lot of their documentation it does say "surge."
I mean even when I am talking to a met specializing in this area we will use the word "surge" when we both know we are talking about storm tide.
Storm tide includes surge, high tide, wave action, and wave runup. For instance all the HWM are storm tide. All the numbers from the FEMA info are storm tide, not surge. I believe the oft-quoted max surge height from Camille is actually a storm tide HWM.
Even if Kat had not come just after high tide, but had come later, closer to low tide, the high tide would still have not had a real chance to "run out" and would still be considered part of the storm surge.
Here is a link to a good overall visual of the storm tide...in this map the storm tide elevations are referred to as "surge elevations"...a good example of the same kind of interchangeable usage. You just have to keep track of the context is all.
http://www.fema.gov/hazards/floods/reco ... erview.pdf
There are a lot more links in some other post I made a couple of months ago.
By the way this clearly shows the inundation heights between 16-18 ft for Pascagoula...and the green stars refer to HWM that were taken there, which are provided on the FEMA detail maps. Please feel free to look them all up. So if you still feel that I am wrong, please feel free to also contact FEMA and let them know they were wrong (the specific FEMA contact is Todd Davison), and that all the skilled surveyors who spent several months along the coastline measuring the HWM must have no idea what they are doing,... and don't forget the NHC storm surge unit and hurricane specialists, and NWSFO at Slidell, who used the same SLOSH runs that generated the warnings and were used as input into the overview map, referenced above. In fact, I'd be delighted to see anyone follow up with any of these experts and come back with an actual quote that the surge in Pascagoula was 27-30 ft. If you are local I'd start with Butch Loper, the Jackson County EM, who is still working out of the wreak of an EOC, but don't be shy. Just pick up the phone and call the experts. They're all very busy but extremely accomodating.
The actual "surge" heights would be the high tide values subtracted from the numbers given on the overview. At any particular location the surge would be the storm tide minus high tide value, wave action, and wave runup.
The FEMA flood inundation data is extremely accurate for a very large percentage of the square miles documented; this is because of the mathematical model they use, combining LIDAR data with the sparse HWM data.
Whether this is important or not depends on what information you are looking for. Also sometimes it is not possible to be able to separate out the different values (for instance, there is an outside HWM, but even if there is an inside HWM, if there was still some wave runup inside, then it is not possible to accurately know the actual surge height there, although the HWM is known).
Storm surge analysis requires separating the surge from the other components of the storm tide; also separating out freshwater flooding from salt-water flooding. For instance there was freshwater flooding considerably inland along the Pascagoula River basin beyond the point where salt water surge inundation occured (the surge acted as a hydraulic dam). And the salt water inundation went inland quite a ways past where usually the water is no longer brackish; a good 5 to 10 miles I would guess. This would have killed the freshwater plants that grow along the shoreline in these locations. Surge analysis would include this type of information and there are coastal impact studies going on right now to determine the impact of the salt water and fresh water flooding along the river, as well as other type of impact studies (barrier island studies):
http://coastal.er.usgs.gov/hurricanes/katrina/
Here is an excellent link with a lot of good graphics with more detail about storm surge in general (thanks, Mark), which also refers to the storm tide as surge:
http://hurricanetrack.com/ncstormsurge/srginf.html
In some areas the difference between high and low tide is quite a few feet of difference, and so is a significant factor in the surge height (not the case with the MS Gulf coast).
Last edited by Margie on Wed Mar 01, 2006 7:17 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Margie- I don't post often but I have got to say the attitude in your post is for the birds! Have you ever dealt with people on a day to day basis??? There is a correct and wrong way of approaching people with info you believe they have as bad. I think some lessons in human relations might help.
I won't say anymore.
I won't say anymore.
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Extremeweatherguy
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- Location: Houston, TX
Here are a few resources you can use for storm surge info. with Katrina:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/HurricaneKatri ... id=1195020
http://www.al.com/news/mobileregister/i ... xml&coll=3
http://www.wunderground.com/blog/JeffMa ... amp=200512
http://abcnews.go.com/US/HurricaneKatri ... id=1195020
http://www.al.com/news/mobileregister/i ... xml&coll=3
http://www.wunderground.com/blog/JeffMa ... amp=200512
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Margie
exw-guy: Those are generally among some of the more accurate news stories I've found over the past months.
--
Take special note of Stephen's quotes in the ABC news story.
However it was that very reference to the SSHS surge numbers (big oops...those are not used by NHC hurricane specialists in estimating or determining surge values) in Jeff's blog that led to Jeff and myself working together to gather information for a comprehensive description of Katrina's storm surge (which will be a topic in Jeff's blog before very long).
Here's something kind of funny: Butch had the HWM at the Jackson County EOC (16.7 ft) marked and verified practically while the wall was still wet. He ran outside with a magic marker right away.
--
Take special note of Stephen's quotes in the ABC news story.
However it was that very reference to the SSHS surge numbers (big oops...those are not used by NHC hurricane specialists in estimating or determining surge values) in Jeff's blog that led to Jeff and myself working together to gather information for a comprehensive description of Katrina's storm surge (which will be a topic in Jeff's blog before very long).
Here's something kind of funny: Butch had the HWM at the Jackson County EOC (16.7 ft) marked and verified practically while the wall was still wet. He ran outside with a magic marker right away.
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MSRobi911
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Margie,
I don't know who the heck you are and have never seen you post before, but I do not appreciate your attitude toward my post. I rode out the storm in the Jackson County Courthouse directly opposite of the Jackson County EOC and personally spoke with Butch Loper. I know this man personally and sat in his office and laid on a cot, one of several that he had in his office and rested in his office, before, during and after the storm!!!
The Jackson County Courthouse is about 2 miles from the beach, now you are only saying that on the beach itself the "storm surge" was only approximately 1 foot above that???? for it to go inland 2 miles and still be at 16.7 feet at the EOC???
I am not a professional, nor do I claim to have the knowledge that you evidently do, but I know what I lived through and I know that I did not have a house left when I came home, only a slab and yes it was and is my decision to live here. I know the water went all the way up into Pinecrest as my In-Laws live in Pinecrest and they had 3 feet of water in their home. I know that it went all the way up hospital road to the railroad tracks because I work for a physician that our office is located only a few hundred yards from the railroad track, so don't try and tell me something I know for a fact.
The information that I quoted came from Butch Loper through my husband who is the Major with the Jackson County Sheriffs Department. And excuse me if you knew anything about Jackson County/Pascagoula you would know that we have gone through Catagory I, II and III storms and NEVER flooded like with Katrina.
I know what I look at everyday I walk out of my trailer and I know what happened to my home town and to my home, so don't try to tell me something that you have no idea about. Were you here???? Did you lose anything because of Katrina????
Nobody wants to hear your BS and I certainly am in no mood to put up with it.
I may get kicked off here and banned for life, but lady, you got some big cohonas(sp)!
Now that I have showed my behind I will step down off my soap box.
Thank you!
Mary
I don't know who the heck you are and have never seen you post before, but I do not appreciate your attitude toward my post. I rode out the storm in the Jackson County Courthouse directly opposite of the Jackson County EOC and personally spoke with Butch Loper. I know this man personally and sat in his office and laid on a cot, one of several that he had in his office and rested in his office, before, during and after the storm!!!
The Jackson County Courthouse is about 2 miles from the beach, now you are only saying that on the beach itself the "storm surge" was only approximately 1 foot above that???? for it to go inland 2 miles and still be at 16.7 feet at the EOC???
I am not a professional, nor do I claim to have the knowledge that you evidently do, but I know what I lived through and I know that I did not have a house left when I came home, only a slab and yes it was and is my decision to live here. I know the water went all the way up into Pinecrest as my In-Laws live in Pinecrest and they had 3 feet of water in their home. I know that it went all the way up hospital road to the railroad tracks because I work for a physician that our office is located only a few hundred yards from the railroad track, so don't try and tell me something I know for a fact.
The information that I quoted came from Butch Loper through my husband who is the Major with the Jackson County Sheriffs Department. And excuse me if you knew anything about Jackson County/Pascagoula you would know that we have gone through Catagory I, II and III storms and NEVER flooded like with Katrina.
I know what I look at everyday I walk out of my trailer and I know what happened to my home town and to my home, so don't try to tell me something that you have no idea about. Were you here???? Did you lose anything because of Katrina????
Nobody wants to hear your BS and I certainly am in no mood to put up with it.
I may get kicked off here and banned for life, but lady, you got some big cohonas(sp)!
Now that I have showed my behind I will step down off my soap box.
Thank you!
Mary
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