NHC Classification/Upgrade/Downgrade Issues (eg. Tomas)

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wxman57
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NHC Classification/Upgrade/Downgrade Issues (eg. Tomas)

#1 Postby wxman57 » Sat Oct 30, 2010 11:03 am

This thread is NOT meant to bash the NHC regarding the apparent slowness in upgrading Tomas and other storms this season (Richard). We can discuss the issues with making the decision to upgrade/downgrade/reclassify here. Hindsight is always 20/20. What could have been done to better warn the residents of the eastern Caribbean about a possible hurricane before it was classified?

When I heard Bill Read talk at the Tucson AMS meeting last spring, he said that the NHC was willing and able to issue TS watches/warnings BEFORE a disturbance was upgraded, in cases where an upgrade was certain. That didn't seem to happen with Tomas, though.

The loss of QuikSCAT was certainly a blow to forecasters trying to determine the presence of an LLC by satellite alone. But Colin, Danielle, Earl, Fiona, Gaston, Igor, Julia and Lisa were classified without QS and with very few obs available. Satellite is an effective tool, but it can mislead. Sometimes a clear circulation is aloft and not at the surface.

In the case of Tomas, satellite showed very strong spiral banding 24 hours before it was classified a TS (and a rapidly-intensifying TS at that). But there were no observations to the south of Tomas to verify the closed LLC, and it appears cloud tops weren't cold enough to warrant a higher Dvorak rating. Clearly, though, 91L looked much more impressive on satellite than did 92L (Shary).

With the significant threat looming for the east Caribbean, recon should have been in 91L much earlier than yesterday afternoon. And I think that it was very clear 91L was a TS as early as Thursday, as a ship NE of the center was reporting 35kt winds that afternoon. In the case of 91L/Tomas, an upgrade to at least a TD was warranted. There would have been no harm in doing so, even if 91L fizzled, something that didn't appear likely given the rapid organization evident on satellite. Waiting for recon was not a good decision in hindsight, they should have just pulled the trigger a lot earlier, maybe on Thursday afternoon.

Richard was another case of a slow upgrade. And that system HAD surface obs to show a clear LLC long before it was upgraded. NHC would probably argue that convection around the center maybe wasn't organized or strong enough for an upgrade. OK, then how do they explain keeping Fiona a TS for 24-48 hours after it had weakened to just a single well-detached squall south of Bermuda?

I like the idea of a separate group of hurricane specialists, separate from the NHC. Their job is to continually assess the status of all tropical disturbances, upgrading and downgrading when warranted, based on the data available. No political, location, or past history considerations. Either a system IS a TD/TS/H or it is not. Doesn't matter if it was just upgraded to a hurricane 2 hours ago. If it's suddenly hit by shear and recon can't find winds over 50 kts, then it's now a TS again. If a disturbance has a closed circulation but no big squalls near the center, then it's a TD. Either that or when a previously-named TD/TS has its convection stripped away then it's downgraded to an open wave. Can't have it both ways.

The NHC forecasters would then just have to deal with what that agency/group tells them is there. Hey, that's what I have to do every day! ;-)

Oh, and one more thing. The probability of development duties should not be done by the same people who decide when to upgrade a disturbance. In reality, the NHC is predicting just how likely it is that they will upgrade a disturbance in 48 hours, as the determination is purely subjective. For Tomas, a 20% chance of development within 48 hrs was issued Thursday morning. At the time, it already appeared to have developed an LLC. What was that 20% based upon? We had 70-80% at the same time in our forecasts.
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#2 Postby northjaxpro » Sat Oct 30, 2010 11:14 am

I think the NHC could have put out a "Special Tropical Disturbance" statement at least 12 hours prior to their actual release of their first advisory on Tomas. Satellitte imagery and even a ship report that I observed back on Thursday definitely showed that a TD or even a TS had already formed long before Recon arrived. NHC used to put out these "statements" in past seasons to serve as a "tip off" to the public that a tropical depression or tropical storm may be forming. I think had they done this back on Thursday evening the people on the islands definitely would have had the "tip off" from NHC to start rushing to completion plans to prepare for the cyclone.

I wish NHC would resume doing the Special Tropical Distrurbance statements. I think they are very useful to tip off people that advisories are imminent. It is a very good debate though. But, I want to definitely state here that I totally respect the forecasters down at the NHC. It is a very, very tough job to forecast these cyclones and a huge responsibility to update the public for those guys down at NHC.
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#3 Postby RL3AO » Sat Oct 30, 2010 11:29 am

I'd love for watches and warnings to be issued before the first advisory. It makes sense. It allows you to warn the public and lets you wait for evidence that you have a TC. For them being able and willing to do it though, they sure don't seem willing and/or able too.
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Re: NHC Classification/Upgrade/Downgrade Issues (eg. Tomas)

#4 Postby wxman57 » Sat Oct 30, 2010 11:45 am

Here's another thought. Why wait for an official classification of TD/TS to begin advisories? We issue 7-day forecast tracks on tropical disturbances for our clients. Not that I want more competition, but the NHC could elect to begin advisories on any system that is judged to have a 50% chance or more of developing within 48 hrs. Development is more likely than not at that point, so why wait to put out watches/warnings? Tornado watches are issued before a tornado actually forms. They could put out a track and a forecast of intensity along the track, just as if it had been upgraded. Watches/warnings could be issued based on the prediction that the disturbance would organize into a TD/TS/H.
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#5 Postby Weatherfreak000 » Sat Oct 30, 2010 12:09 pm

^^
Great thread Wxman, I totally agree.
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Re: NHC Classification/Upgrade/Downgrade Issues (eg. Tomas)

#6 Postby Aquawind » Sat Oct 30, 2010 1:38 pm

but the NHC could elect to begin advisories on any system that is judged to have a 50% chance or more of developing within 48 hrs. Development is more likely than not at that point, so why wait to put out watches/warnings? Tornado watches are issued before a tornado actually forms.


If time is of the essence than waiting for more data could prove to be fatal as we know how quickly things can intensify.. A TS watch at least starts the awareness/preparations and a quick upgrade to HW or a total drop can be done when they have enough data. This percentage system is so subjective..60% vs 80% depends on the forecaster on the specific shift. Tasked to a group of people with a specific role should only help with these early subjective classifications and warnings.
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Re: NHC Classification/Upgrade/Downgrade Issues (eg. Tomas)

#7 Postby AdamFirst » Sat Oct 30, 2010 3:46 pm

I notice the Pacific basin has multiple agencies, both national and multi-national that covers large portions of the basin (like the JTWC, the Japanese Meteorological Agency, etc.)

The only players in the game on our side of the world are the NHC and the Canadian Hurricane Centre...and the CHC only really covers the Canadian Maritimes.

I believe a separate entity would not hurt either...as long as it's legit, and not some media-funded madhouse ran by Joe B from Accuweather...etc.
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Re: NHC Classification/Upgrade/Downgrade Issues (eg. Tomas)

#8 Postby srainhoutx » Sat Oct 30, 2010 4:19 pm

The NHC still provided the best information and forecasting that is available regardless of what some think are shortcomings. As the old saying goes. 'walk a mile in my shoes'.
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Re: NHC Classification/Upgrade/Downgrade Issues (eg. Tomas)

#9 Postby RL3AO » Sat Oct 30, 2010 7:01 pm

AdamFirst wrote:I notice the Pacific basin has multiple agencies, both national and multi-national that covers large portions of the basin (like the JTWC, the Japanese Meteorological Agency, etc.)

The only players in the game on our side of the world are the NHC and the Canadian Hurricane Centre...and the CHC only really covers the Canadian Maritimes.

I believe a separate entity would not hurt either...as long as it's legit, and not some media-funded madhouse ran by Joe B from Accuweather...etc.


The West Pacific isn't any different then the Atlantic.

Japan is the official agency of the West Pacific. They get to name the storms. JTWC issues advisories for the US Department of Defense. They don't issue advisory for the Atlantic and East Pacific because the NHC fulfills their requirements which are 1-min winds and wind radii for 34kt, 50kt, and 64kt.
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Re: NHC Classification/Upgrade/Downgrade Issues (eg. Tomas)

#10 Postby chrisjslucia » Mon Nov 01, 2010 6:50 pm

srainhoutx wrote:The NHC still provided the best information and forecasting that is available regardless of what some think are shortcomings. As the old saying goes. 'walk a mile in my shoes'.


As Wxman 57 said when opening this thread:
"This thread is NOT meant to bash the NHC regarding the apparent slowness in upgrading Tomas and other storms this season (Richard). We can discuss the issues with making the decision to upgrade/downgrade/reclassify here. Hindsight is always 20/20. What could have been done to better warn the residents of the eastern Caribbean about a possible hurricane before it was classified?

So, perhaps we can have an informed, calm discussion without knee jerk criticism of the NHC or those of us who felt the lack of warning received by St Lucia and others was a failure - none of us are perfect, so we can all learn from experience, one of the useful applications of hindsight.

St Lucians were advised by text message on Friday afternoon there was a tropical storm warning. That was it. I'm told local met people in a media interview said they decided not to advise on the upgrade to a hurricane warning, as they were sceptical (I find this unbelievable and cannot verify it as I've had no power so no broadcast media). The delay in classification was possibly compounded by poor local response - no doubt the facts will emerge in the wash.

What I found frustrating was on Saturday 23rd Crown Weather made a strong case for the existence of a strong tropical storm crossing the Windwards somewhere around St Vincent to Martinique and Rob repeated this view on Monday 25th in his daily briefing. At least two models showed similar paths and views about intensity increased during the week. Nevertheless, Tomas remained an Invest until Friday. From 10 am Saturday I and the rest of St Lucia sat under a Hurricane that took 22 hours to pass. Not only did most of the country not know about Tomas, but those who did were unsure as to its strength and track. We did know it was large, from satellite images, but the steer we needed was a good fix on actual track and intensity and time - I was expecting an impact from Tomas around 2pm, but my steel gates were blown off their fixings at 11am.

Would 24 hours have made a difference? Damn right and could have saved lives.

So, how could we all have done better? I would like to hear from others who know far more about met services than me. I'd also like to hear from the simple punters, such as myself, how we can network better to at least put the possibilities out there for people to know about, even if we know Government will not publicly react and advise until it has received advice from NHC.
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Re: NHC Classification/Upgrade/Downgrade Issues (eg. Tomas)

#11 Postby andrewsurvivor » Mon Nov 01, 2010 7:29 pm

It's also always surprised me that all landfalls are treated equally. Surely the logistics of preparing and/or evacuating varies. It seems natural to need more lead time in a location such as Haiti landfall just as a coastal evacuation in So Texas or So Fl would take longer than a less densely populated area. Not to mention communications vary greatly. Does anyone else agree there should be special provisions for Haiti in particular? I mean isn't the system's objective to save lives?!
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Re: NHC Classification/Upgrade/Downgrade Issues (eg. Tomas)

#12 Postby wxman57 » Tue Nov 02, 2010 2:20 pm

Something to ponder today:

I think there is a very good argument that Tomas is currently less organized than it was 24 hours before the NHC originally classified it. Therefore, to be consistent, should the NHC consider Tomas dead and stop issuing advisories?

My answer is "of course not". However, if Tomas is currently a TS, then it should have been classified a TS 24-36 hours before it eventually was.
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Re: NHC Classification/Upgrade/Downgrade Issues (eg. Tomas)

#13 Postby jconsor » Thu Nov 04, 2010 5:17 am

wxman57 - Agree 100% about the need for consistency. I also think your suggestion of NHC issuing forecasts for disturbances that are expected to develop makes sense.

Probably due to the record high SSTs and the propensity for small, tightly-wound systems, 2010 has seen a number of tropical cyclones organize very rapidly from a wave or TD to a strong TS or even hurricane within 24-36 hours, most very close to land. Hermine, Karl, Paula and Tomas are all examples. Marco in 2008 and Humberto in 2007 are other examples from recent years.

As Tomas showed, rapidly developing tropical cyclones close to land can occasionally lead to major and unexpected loss of life and property. Unfortunately, past history shows us that the systems that are most likely to rapidly develop from a TD to a hurricane in a short time frame are those that form in the Caribbean and Gulf.
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Re: NHC Classification/Upgrade/Downgrade Issues (eg. Tomas)

#14 Postby vbhoutex » Thu Nov 04, 2010 8:45 pm

Some interesting thoughts and proposals put forth here. I haven't seen anything I can disagree with so far. The question I have is where is the funding going to come from for the proposed separate agency and/or needed extra infrastructure, computers, etc? Are you proposing some privatization of these functions? It seems that that might be the only way the funding might become available considering the current lack of funding put forth for this area.
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Re: NHC Classification/Upgrade/Downgrade Issues (eg. Tomas)

#15 Postby margiek » Thu Nov 04, 2010 9:31 pm

wxman57 wrote:Here's another thought. Why wait for an official classification of TD/TS to begin advisories? We issue 7-day forecast tracks on tropical disturbances for our clients. Not that I want more competition, but the NHC could elect to begin advisories on any system that is judged to have a 50% chance or more of developing within 48 hrs. Development is more likely than not at that point, so why wait to put out watches/warnings? Tornado watches are issued before a tornado actually forms. They could put out a track and a forecast of intensity along the track, just as if it had been upgraded. Watches/warnings could be issued based on the prediction that the disturbance would organize into a TD/TS/H.


NHC's duties and responsibilities (as well as other agencies) are spelled out in the NHOP. Changes to procedures are accomplished through the annual revisions to the NHOP. The process to initiate and complete a revision to the NHOP is well-defined. For that reason I don't see the value in speculating about changes or ideas for NHC or any other agency supporting the NHOP, as these fall completely outside of the mechanism to affect change.

Just sayin.' ;)
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