Downgrading/Reclass--Insult to New Orleans!!!!

[Pearl River]

Aslkahuna said:

Finally, about the Slidell Radar-actually it's immaterial whether it was up or not at time of CPA since the eastern eyewall was never close enough to get a near surface wind if it had been.

I'm just asking a question because I don't. How close does the eye have to be to the radar?

[MiamiensisWx]

Thanks for all that, CapeVerdeWave (I believe Betsy began as a Cape Verde Wave . Your sincerity is obvious and I appreciate it. I never intended to trivialize what Cat 1 or Cat 2 winds could do, only emphasize my point that I felt, (and still feel) the report understates what actually happened here. Just as yourself, I make no claims to infallibility, and just as yourself, I certainly would wish this kind of destruction on no one.

Indeed, we are all learning.... may it continue to be the case!

Pax

A2K

Thanks to you, too, but you did not read my whole post. I appreciate your kind comments and, finally, honesty on what you may have meant, but you seem to be taking a small part of my post and taking it out of context as if I am COMPLETELY agreeing with you. You need to read the WHOLE post, not just a fraction of it, before making good judgements. Just because ONE PART of my post agrees or seems to agree with you in some way does not mean that I agree with you entirely at all.

Also, what are your thoughts on Wilma's strength in southern Florida when it crossed the state? I would like to hear that.

[Audrey2Katrina]

Thanks for all that, CapeVerdeWave (I believe Betsy began as a Cape Verde Wave . Your sincerity is obvious and I appreciate it. I never intended to trivialize what Cat 1 or Cat 2 winds could do, only emphasize my point that I felt, (and still feel) the report understates what actually happened here. Just as yourself, I make no claims to infallibility, and just as yourself, I certainly would wish this kind of destruction on no one.

Indeed, we are all learning.... may it continue to be the case!

Pax

A2K

Thanks to you, too, but you did not read my whole post. I appreciate your kind comments and, finally, honesty on what you may have meant, but you seem to be taking a small part of my post and taking it out of context as if I am COMPLETELY agreeing with you. You need to read the WHOLE post, not just a fraction of it, before making good judgements. Just because ONE PART of my post agrees or seems to agree with you in some way does not mean that I agree with you entirely at all.

Also, what are your thoughts on Wilma's strength in southern Florida when it crossed the state? I would like to hear that.

Well, in the first place, I did read all of your entire post; but as you've no doubt noticed, been quite busy responding in here today, and since there wasn't much that I took any major issue with, I simply summed it up, as shown above, that I was convinced of your sincerity, and tried to better articulate my own. Nothing more, nothing less. The references to our "agreeing" on matters, well, I didn't go back and see if you quoted all of my post; but it was only that I concur that neither of us claim infallibility, and are still learning. I also went on to reiterate that I still disagree with the Katrina Report's findings in many areas. (Even said as much parenthetically), and one can agree to disagree--it's no big deal to me.

With regard to Wilma, since at the time, I was still digging my stuff out of the rubble of my own home, I haven't had time to do the reading up on that one that I will be doing in the near future; so I can't really speak with any authority other than what I perceived at the time. It looks to me like she was at least a strong 2, perhaps minimal 3 at landfall--but I concede this is strictly from memory of what I was following at the time. If your area went through that, I hope all is well with you and yours, because encounters with these monsters is no fun at all.

PAX

A2K

[MiamiensisWx]

Well, in the first place, I did read all of your entire post; but as you've no doubt noticed, been quite busy responding in here today, and since there wasn't much that I took any major issue with, I simply summed it up, as shown above, that I was convinced of your sincerity, and tried to better articulate my own. Nothing more, nothing less. The references to our "agreeing" on matters, well, I didn't go back and see if you quoted all of my post; but it was only that I concur that neither of us claim infallibility, and are still learning. I also went on to reiterate that I still disagree with the Katrina Report's findings in many areas. (Even said as much parenthetically), and one can agree to disagree--it's no big deal to me.

With regard to Wilma, since at the time, I was still digging my stuff out of the rubble of my own home, I haven't had time to do the reading up on that one that I will be doing in the near future; so I can't really speak with any authority other than what I perceived at the time. It looks to me like she was at least a strong 2, perhaps minimal 3 at landfall--but I concede this is strictly from memory of what I was following at the time. If your area went through that, I hope all is well with you and yours, because encounters with these monsters is no fun at all.

PAX

A2K

Minimal Category Three? You mean low-end Category Three? Wilma was a strong Category Three at landfall with 125MPH sustained winds. It crossed Florida and exited into the Atlantic near West Palm Beach with 105MPH sustained winds. In the Atlantic, Wilma strengthened back to 125MPH sustained winds before becoming extratropical. Believe me, we got mostly Category One sustained winds, interjected by many short periods of Category Two sustained winds, and it was NOT FUN. Is the reason why you couln't hear about Wilma was because of other matters? Maybe it's dumb to ask this question, but I'm just curious. Damage was numerous in south Florida, but the foolish media (whom you NEVER should trust) downplayed it and the storm's winds. The towns along the southern end of Lake Okeechobee have been hit EXTREMELY HARD, but they ARE NOT EVEN MENTIONED. Wilma was almost as bad politically as Katrina - almost. Several areas are still recovering. Northern and central Broward County and southern Palm Beach County (including my area) got hit pretty hard, with many debris and roofing damage. The local Boca Raton Airport had planes flipped over and hangars down! Those hangars that did stand up suffered numerous damage, with many door entrances to hangars blown down (even the so-called "slightest" bits of damage add up quickly in costs). Nearby, a long line of fairly new wooden power poles were SNAPPED IN HALF or BLOWN DOWN. Fortunately, compared to what you have likely been through, it is nothing. Still, that is not even close to meaning that damage was light and Wilma was "weak".

Wilma was the worst storm in my area in many years, and definately one of the worst for Palm Beach and Broward counties in many years as well.

[f5]

everyone here is mostly debating Katrina's landfall intensity what about the 175 mph sustained wind reports out at sea will they downdgrade that to?

[senorpepr]

everyone here is mostly debating Katrina's landfall intensity what about the 175 mph sustained wind reports out at sea will they downdgrade that to?

The NHC is maintaining the 175 mph maximum wind.

[f5]

i wonder what NO would of looked like if Katrina hit NO with 175 mph sustained winds.it would most likely look like a biblical disaster movie.the real story is it that its the water that causes the most death not wind.its not the wind that kills its whats in the wind(flying debris)

[MGC]

Here are my thoughts: I was just in NO East Thursday. Fair amount of wind damage but nothing compared to Pass Christian/Diamondhead MS. Just goes to show that it matters quite a bit what side of the eye you are on. My Mom's house (where I grew up) had about 2 feet of water, had half the new roof blown off and had several trees down in the back yard. So, there was a fair amount of wind damage in NO East. The observation taken at Michoud was at 1100 UTC or 6am local. Katrina was just making her landfall and was still a considerable distance from Michoud. I would expect the winds to have been greater at CPA, which was about 3 hours later. With the streaky character of a landfalling hurricane's windfield, it is quite possible and highly unlikely that a single anemometer will sample the highest winds. With all the instruments failing long before the highest winds arrived who knows what the highest winds were in NO East. Also, my brother, a St. Bernard Parish Sheriff Deputy said the water started to rise at the courthouse when the winds had started to die down. They were starting to begin search and rescue when the water rose several feet in a matter of minutes......MGC

[Audrey2Katrina]

Well, like I said--I have been having lots of other things to do and be following. In the first place, I didn't even get back to my house till around Sept. 19, and the following weekend, just when we're beginning to get things somewhat livable around here, in less than a week we were warily eyeing Rita--and of course, the levees breached AGAIN from what couldn't have been more than 30-40kt gusts around here from the outer fringe bands of Rita, in New Orleans, granted terribly weakened and already damaged by Katrina, and the lower 9th ward was under many feet of water for the second time in less than a month.
I was also very busy trying to get my school, which had flood damage cleaned out and ready enough for returning students by some time in October. Additionally I was quite busy clearing out the downstairs of my home where there had been about 8-18 inches of water at some point during/just after the storm. Still living on a slab to this day; but conditions are slowly returning to a semblance of "normal" for lack of a better word. So as you can see, once I knew Wilma was NOT going to threaten us (La. being hit by two of the three most intense storms in the last 50 years all within a 25 day period was a bit much) I really was busy, and still am but thankfully the pace is slowing, with other things that needed doing. I do note that it struck Florida with 125 mph winds... definitely cat 3. It'll be interesting to read the final report that comes out on Wilma. Sure had one tight eye before it went into the Yucatan. And yes--none of these things are fun. If I were a younger man, I'd be relocating north of the Lake--at least that's ABOVE sea level! Hell, I still might.

A2K

[Pearl River]

The following are some preliminary maximum sustained winds and peak gusts observed across South Florida:

Location Maximum Sustained Wind Maximum Peak Wind
Miami International 67 mph at 830 AM 92 mph at 752 and 756AM
Fort Lauderdale 70 mph at 811 AM 99 mph at 830 AM
Palm Beach International 82 mph at 910 AM 101 mph at 914 AM
Pompano Beach* 83 mph at 840 AM 98 mph at 818 and 837 AM
Naples* 61 mph at 807 AM 82 mph at 802 AM
Opa Locka* 85 mph at 816 AM 105 mph at 813 AM
Tamiami* 58 mph at 733 AM 83 mph at 738 AM
Fowey Rocks**
(8 miles SE of Key Biscayne) 85 mph at 752 AM 123 mph at 843 AM
WFO Miami (FIU Campus)
(See Figure 6; add 4 knots
for pin drag) 66 mph 746 AM 104 mph at 747 AM
L006***
(South end of
Lake Okeechobee) 103 mph at 1030 AM 112 mph at 11 AM


This is Prelim Report from Miami on Wilma

[Jim Cantore]

New Orleans recieved almost no wind damage what so ever other then high rise windows

the damage was solely caused by water

I respectfully disagree, if by "New Orleans" you mean the entire Metro area. Metairie, to the WEST of New Orleans had quite a bit of Wind damage. The damage across the lake was far worse.

A2K

From Video I'm looking at now I do see what your saying

However compared to wind damage in say Biloxi the wind damage in New Orleans is nothing

[Audrey2Katrina]

Absolutely no argument on that one. I shudder to think what it would look like had we gotten the winds Biloxi did... or for that matter just about anywhere from the Pearl River eastward. I heard Pass Christian got far worse than Biloxi... poor souls... they got wiped clean by Camille 36 years ago.

God help 'em all, and I know people said this after Camille, as they did after Betsy, and doubtless after umpteen others in this area--I hope some folks learned their lessons--but history is not an optimistic indicator.

A2K

[Jim Cantore]

I just hope that those poor people had something to celebrate about on christmas

[Tampa Bay Hurricane]

With extensive coastal development during the inactive cycle of
1970-1994...there will be serious impacts from storms that will look like it is from a higher category when in fact a lower cat did it.

A Category 3 Hurricane with a Category 5 Surge is capable
of complete devastation.

In fact, a Category 5 surge on a perfectly sunny day is capable of catastrophe- Last Years Tsunami...how it wiped out everything

[Jim Cantore]

With extensive coastal development during the inactive cycle of
1970-1994...there will be serious impacts from storms that will look like it is from a higher category when in fact a lower cat did it.

A Category 3 Hurricane with a Category 5 Surge is capable
of complete devastation.

In fact, a Category 5 surge on a perfectly sunny day is capable of catastrophe- Last Years Tsunami...how it wiped out everything

the tsunami that occured 1 year ago today as a matter of fact

thats a great example you bring up

[jazzfan1247]

Absolutely no argument on that one. I shudder to think what it would look like had we gotten the winds Biloxi did... or for that matter just about anywhere from the Pearl River eastward. I heard Pass Christian got far worse than Biloxi... poor souls... they got wiped clean by Camille 36 years ago.

God help 'em all, and I know people said this after Camille, as they did after Betsy, and doubtless after umpteen others in this area--I hope some folks learned their lessons--but history is not an optimistic indicator.

A2K

What I can't understand is how you acknowledge the fact that the MS coast received significantly worse wind damage than NO, but the MS coast essentially got the Cat 2/3 conditions that you believe NO experienced. The only way this would make sense is if you ALSO believe that Katrina was basically a Cat 4 on the MS landfall. I was just curious as to whether you believe this also?

[DoctorHurricane2003]

This feels like that cyclone killer guy. Round and round we go, where we stop only the mods know.

[stormcrow]

If the wind only damages in NOLA were cat 1 winds only, heaven help cities like Houston (were construction is even worse then NOLA) if they ever get a cat 3.

[Derek Ortt]

Florenece DID NOT bring cat 1 conditions to New Orleans. Those wer econfined to Grand Isle. You received low to moderate TS winds from Florence. Of course real cat 1 winds will be worse than Florence, because you did not get a cat 1 from Florence

[Audrey2Katrina]

Absolutely no argument on that one. I shudder to think what it would look like had we gotten the winds Biloxi did... or for that matter just about anywhere from the Pearl River eastward. I heard Pass Christian got far worse than Biloxi... poor souls... they got wiped clean by Camille 36 years ago. ...

What I can't understand is how you acknowledge the fact that the MS coast received significantly worse wind damage than NO, but the MS coast essentially got the Cat 2/3 conditions that you believe NO experienced. The only way this would make sense is if you ALSO believe that Katrina was basically a Cat 4 on the MS landfall. I was just curious as to whether you believe this also?

Well, let's put it that I am convinced that it was Cat 4 at first landfall, a possibility even the report acknowledges however askance. As far as the MS landfall... from what I see, (okay here we go again -- where's the data-- I guess we'll have to wait and see--despite the naysayers all of it was not reported.) it does appear more like a 4 than a 3 there, yes; but I am certain it was more than any 2, and at the very least a high 3; one thing is certain it was hit with a cat 5 surge that did not hit our area at all.

Another thing I'm certain of is that it was no 2 by any stretch of the scale in MS. --and that DOES account for the differential in wind damage.

Happy New Year All!

A2K