Camille not a cat-5 at Mississippi landfall???

[HurricaneBill]

I think Southern Texas (Brownsville area) could get struck by a Category 5.

[Aslkahuna]

Incidentally, there is a slight error in the original post of this thread. The 909mb reading was NOT the last pressure reading before landfall but the actual landfalling pressure at Bay St. Louis.

Steve

[Pearl River]

Aslkahuna wrote

Incidentally, there is a slight error in the original post of this thread. The 909mb reading was NOT the last pressure reading before landfall but the actual landfalling pressure at Bay St. Louis.

Steve

You are correct Steve. I believe 905 was the last recon pressure. The 909 on that barometer was verified later as accurate by the NWS in New Orleans

[timNms]

I think it is fairly safe to say that small hurricanes have a much better chance of making landfall in any given location as a cat-5 than do larger ones like Ivan or Katrina. However, I would not be surprised to see a large Floyd-like hurricane hit south Florida as a category five some day. History tells us that the really intense hurricanes to hit the U.S. were small. The Labor Day 1935 hurricane is a great example. Charley was small too and boy did it scare the heck out of our team while sat through that eyewall (coming and going).

I just think that the larger hurricanes have a much better chance of weakening before landfall than do the smaller intense hurricanes. However, we also have to watch out for rapidly deepening hurricanes, even large ones, right before landfall. That could cause big problems.

One final note regarding Katrina. I have passed through the entire landfall zone along the coast now and have noticed that the tree damage is no where near that which was caused by Hugo in SC in 1989. This really helps me to clearly see that the winds of Katrina were not of cat-4 intensity even down in the southern reaches of Louisiana. The tree damage would have been tremendous. But- and this is important, would the tress have had as much stress on them if they were under say 20 to 30 feet of water? There are so many mysteries still with hurricanes- I hope we can learn more with each landfall and each passing season. This is why I do what I do. You never know enough.

I also question whether the trees being under the surge had any effect on there not being as much tree damage as some would expect. I do, however, know that there was extensive tree damage inland. There are areas in Pearl River County along Interstate 59 that looks like a bomb exploded. Even in my area, about 10 miles south of me a whole community lost about 90% of their trees.

[Matt-hurricanewatcher]

So Ivan was the same strength as katrina at landfall...So check the trees in the path of both. Then you will know who was stronger or weaker. But I believe because katrina was a cat5 just off shore(Just 8 hours)that the surge was very much enhanced from Ivan...Plus her size from Camille made a even higher surge...

This is what I believe.

[timNms]

Aslkahuna wrote

Incidentally, there is a slight error in the original post of this thread. The 909mb reading was NOT the last pressure reading before landfall but the actual landfalling pressure at Bay St. Louis.

Steve

You are correct Steve. I believe 905 was the last recon pressure. The 909 on that barometer was verified later as accurate by the NWS in New Orleans

I wonder if that was the lowest landfall pressure or could it have been even lower at Pass Christian where she made landfall?

[timNms]

So Ivan was the same strength as katrina at landfall...So check the trees in the path of both. Then you will know who was stronger or weaker. But I believe because katrina was a cat5 just off shore(Just 8 hours)that the surge was very much enhanced from Ivan...Plus her size from Camille made a even higher surge...

This is what I believe.

Matt,

My family and I passed thru the area that Ivan hit on our way to Orlando last summer. I was amazed at the way the trees were bent and leaning. But, guess what? Now the trees here look as bad or worse after Katrina and I'm 100 miles inland. I don't know how things look along Ivan's inland path, but I can tell you that Katrina left a mark well inland.

My son's little league baseball coach lost 85% of his hardwood timber. I was talking to him a few days ago. He said he couldn't find anyone who would take the trees out for free because the timber industry is maxed. There is a woodyard about 5 miles from my house. They have enough logs in their lot to last until Aug. of 07!

[Pearl River]

timNms, this is from a report issued by the Environmental Science Service Administration of the Dept. of Commerce in November 1969:

The lowest land pressure was observed by Mr. Charles A. Breath, Jr. of Bay St. Louis, in his home a few blocks from the west end of Bay St. Louis Bridge. He made the reading of 26.85 inches on his aneroid barometer as the eastern edge of Camille's eye passed overhead. His barometer was later checked and found to be accurate by the New Orleans Weather Bureau Office. Other low pressures included a 27.80 inch reading at Garden Island, Louisiana, and 27.90 inch at St. Stanislaus School in Bay St. Louis.

I also drive I-59 to Meridian and north MS a lot due to my job. I have seen several areas of moderate to severe tree damage as far north as Newton County.

[Pearl River]

This is also from that same ESSA report of November 1969:

WINDS

Accurate wind measurements are almost impossible to obtain in a hurricane of Camille's intensity. Based on reconnaissance flight level winds and measured surface pressure, maximum surface winds were calculated at 175 knots (201.5 miles per hour), close to the center, early on the afternoon of the 17th. This calculation represents the maximum winds ever observed in a hurricane and based on something other than pure estimation. The Labor Day Hurricane of 1935 may have had more severe winds, but there is just no way of telling.
The highest actual measurement on a wind instrument was found on an Easterline Angus wind speed recorder which had been left running on a Tranworld Drilling Company rig located east of Boothville (Maine Pass Block 29). The recorder had been switched to double scale before evacuation and recorded an extreme gust of 172 miles per hour before the paper jammed and the trace was lost. An Air National Guard Weather Flight stationed at Gulfport Municipal Airport, estimated sustained winds in excess of 100 miles per hour and gust of 150-175 miles per hour. Other less reliable reports from the Gulport-Bay St. Louis area indicated winds of 150-200 miles per hour. At Boothville, Louisiana, 107 mile per hour gusts were recorded before a power failure; at Pillottown, Louisiana, the SS CRISTOBAL estimated winds at 160 miles per hour.

Winds at Biloxi (Keesler Air Force Base) were measured at 81 miles per hour with gusts to 129 miles her hour late on the 17th. At Ingalls Shipyard in Pascagoula the highest sustained wind reached 81 miles per hour while a local radio station reported 104 mile per hour winds before a power failure.

West of the storm center hurricane force winds reached only the eastern edge of New Orleans; brief gusts of 60-85 miles per hour extended over most of the city. Eastern sections of St. Tammany and Washington Parishes were swept by intense winds estimated up to 160 miles per hour in gusts at Slidell and up to 130 miles per hour in gusts at Bogalusa and Angie.

Hurricane force winds were confined close to the storm's center as it move inland. These winds extended from east of New Orleans to Pascagoula, while gusts of hurricane force winds extended along the coast from New Orleans to just west of Mobile Bay and inland to just south of Jackson.

[cheezyWXguy]

202 mph?!?! no way

[Pearl River]

cheezywxman wrote

202 mph?!?! no way

Why not? It's right there in b/w. This is the report it came from:

Hurricane Camille August 5-22, 1969



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Courtesy U.S. Department of Commerce, ESSA's Climatological Data, National Summary, Volume 20, Number 8, 1969

[Matt-hurricanewatcher]

So 905 millibars over land? With the radar showing a tightly compact storm...I find it hard to believe that Camille was not a cat5. Whats next to down grade the 1935 florida keys hurricane?

[Audrey2Katrina]

down grade the 1935 florida keys hurricane?

Don't even wanna go there



A2K

[Pearl River]

This is also from a report co-authored by Prof. Roger Pielke on Camille:

The last reconnaissance flight was made early Sunday afternoon, and the crew recorded a central pressure of 26.61 inches (901 mb) and clocked maximum winds at more than 200 mph near the center (USACE 1970). Hurricane-force winds extended 60 miles from the center and gales outward about 180 miles. The storm was now at its peak and was located less than 100 miles from the mouth of the Mississippi River. No hurricane this intense had ever struck the mainland of the United States in recorded history.

[Pearl River]

A2K wrote

Quote:

down grade the 1935 florida keys hurricane?



Don't even wanna go there



A2K

Aw, come on now.

[Matt-hurricanewatcher]

This is also from a report co-authored by Prof. Roger Pielke on Camille:

The last reconnaissance flight was made early Sunday afternoon, and the crew recorded a central pressure of 26.61 inches (901 mb) and clocked maximum winds at more than 200 mph near the center (USACE 1970). Hurricane-force winds extended 60 miles from the center and gales outward about 180 miles. The storm was now at its peak and was located less than 100 miles from the mouth of the Mississippi River. No hurricane this intense had ever struck the mainland of the United States in recorded history.

1935 florida keys hurriacne did...With a lower pressure. So maximum 200 mph winds gust or one minute?

[beachbum_al]

I know I am not met and I am far from being an expert but Camille and Katrina did major damage along the Coast. One difference Camille was small compact while Katrina was large. Just look at the 100 of miles of damage along the coast that Katrina did.

And does it really make a difference after the fact. All I know is that a lot of people lost their lives, homes, and way of living during these three storms~Camille, Katrina, and Ivan. I do know that large concrete power poles were laying down in Orange Beach along Canal Road after Ivan. I am assuming the storm surge helped to take those down but it is strange to see large concrete power poles down.

[Pearl River]

From the ESSA report:

Accurate wind measurements are almost impossible to obtain in a hurricane of Camille's intensity. Based on reconnaissance flight level winds and measured surface pressure, maximum surface winds were calculated at 175 knots (201.5 miles per hour), close to the center, early on the afternoon of the 17th. This calculation represents the maximum winds ever observed in a hurricane and based on something other than pure estimation. The Labor Day Hurricane of 1935 may have had more severe winds, but there is just no way of telling.

Those were the sustained winds.

[Opal storm]

LOL sorry but Camille did NOT make landfall with 200mph sustained winds.Camille having sustained winds anything over 175mph is ridiculus IMO.Think about it,hurricanes have a difficult time keeping that kind of strength over open warm waters,there's no way it's going to keep that strength to landfall.Especially considering how unfavorable the north Gulf is for cat 4/5 hurricanes.I think Camille made landfall as a borderline cat 4/5,probably being a "weak" cat 5 while passing LA before the MS landfall.Just my opinion.

[Pearl River]

beachbum al wrote

I know I am not met and I am far from being an expert but Camille and Katrina did major damage along the Coast. One difference Camille was small compact while Katrina was large. Just look at the 100 of miles of damage along the coast that Katrina did.

And does it really make a difference after the fact. All I know is that a lot of people lost their lives, homes, and way of living during these three storms~Camille, Katrina, and Ivan. I do know that large concrete power poles were laying down in Orange Beach along Canal Road after Ivan. I am assuming the storm surge helped to take those down but it is strange to see large concrete power poles down.

Does it really make a difference after the fact? Normally it doesn't and it shouldn't. But when there are those that have never experienced the "fact", saying it can't happen or could not have happened, or you didn't experience this because this chart says so, I take offense to that.

Yes, many lives were lost and many homes destroyed. I have friends and family who have suffered and are still suffering. All I have to do is look out my front door and see my sister-in-law living in a FEMA trailer in my front yard with her 2 daughters and her 2 sons living in my house, along with my wife and 3 kids.