Late Season Development W. Carib. (Is invest 91L)

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MiamiensisWx

Re: Late Season Development W. Carib. GFS & CMC

#41 Postby MiamiensisWx » Sat Oct 18, 2008 9:33 am

MiamiensisWx wrote:It's quite plausible that the operational GFS is incorrect, as I have suspected that may be the case. Regardless, the operational GFS has gradually strayed from its original set-up in yesterday's 06Z run. In this case, the alterations make more sense because of the current pattern evolution. Originally, the operational GFS depicted a less amplified/more progressive 250-300 mb upper low (and associated vorticity maximum) over southeastern Canada, which contributed to a stronger 250-500 mb ridge to the SW; this resulted in a deeper upper low over the southern Plains. However, subsequent runs have caught on to the upcoming pattern change (including a weaker Pacific jet and -NAO set-up), so the upper low over the Canadian Maritimes lingered longer. As a result, the ridge to the SW and the upper low over the Midwest was weaker in recent runs. The implications are significant for any TC that enters the southern/SE Gulf of Mexico during the time frame.

The original set-up depicted by the operational GFS (06Z on October 17, 2008) showed wind vectors that were more backed (SSW) over the eastern Gulf of Mexico, unlike later runs. The pattern in the run suggested that any TC would take a path NE across southern Florida (like Isbell 1964). The orientation of the wind vectors (SSW) would have provided an excellent poleward outflow channel for an accelerating TC moving from SW/SSW to NE/NNE, and the fast movement/translational velocity of the TC would have reduced shear on the back side. In this situation, a TC would likely intensify over the SE Gulf of Mexico, as seen with Wilma 2005. It all depends on the speed of the TC and the orientation of the mid/upper level wind vectors in relation to the track of the TC.

Recent runs (as mentioned) have transitioned to more realistic solutions, which depict westerly wind vectors over the GOM and a flatter/weaker subtropical ridge over the Caribbean. In this scenario, any TC would be moving farther north, and the westerly/west-northwest wind vectors would induce considerable shear over the TC as it moves from SSW to NNE. Overall, if anything develops and (likely) moves toward the Florida peninsula/eastern GOM, it is very unlikely that it will exceed weak/moderate TS status, and it may likely evolve as a hybrid type system. There is a big difference between a strong TS/hurricane/major hurricane (especially if it is intensifying) and a stable/weakening weak/moderate TS. This event will not be a big issue if it even develops, in my view.

Overall, this event may provide some necessary precipitation before we enter the dry season (without strong winds of 55-60 kt or greater). The window for systems to affect the CONUS (and Florida) rapidly closes after October 25, so the clock is ticking.

The "season" for the CONUS may be over after this one, pending an anomalous strike in November...

It would be interesting for others to address this analysis...
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MiamiensisWx

Re:

#42 Postby MiamiensisWx » Sat Oct 18, 2008 9:34 am

gatorcane wrote:06Z GFS shows a low passing through peninsula Florida from the NW Caribbean, very October-like here:

You're also overlooking the fact that the operational GFS is MUCH weaker with the system than preceding runs...

What are your thoughts on the intensity?

Personally, I believe this event will be a weak, negligible system for Florida, and it may reflect an end to the CONUS season...
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Re: Late Season Development W. Carib. GFS & CMC

#43 Postby CourierPR » Sat Oct 18, 2008 9:44 am

MiamiensisWx, didn't the early synoptic setup show Wilma being a sheared system as it crossed the FL peninsula?
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MiamiensisWx

Re: Late Season Development W. Carib. GFS & CMC

#44 Postby MiamiensisWx » Sat Oct 18, 2008 9:47 am

CourierPR wrote:MiamiensisWx, didn't the early synoptic setup show Wilma being a sheared system as it crossed the FL peninsula?

CourierPR,

Actually, several members of the model guidance consistently suggested a substantial TC (moderate/strong TS or hurricane) impacting Florida during the early portions of Wilma's life span. The operational GFS showed a favorable outflow channel for the TC over the Gulf of Mexico, but many contributors simply looked at the strength of the UL wind vectors and cried, "Shear!" They didn't look at Wilma's angle of approach in relation to the direction (heading) of the upper level wind vectors ahead of the shortwave trough. In fact, when Wilma was over the Yucatan Peninsula, I believe I generally nicely (compared to others) forecasted Wilma's landfall intensity in Florida (high end Category 2 or low end Category 3), but my memory may be incorrect...

The upcoming pattern (synoptic features and transition to weaker Pacific jet and -NAO) varies considerably from Wilma's set-up...
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Re: Late Season Development W. Carib. GFS & CMC

#45 Postby Sanibel » Sat Oct 18, 2008 9:53 am

Needs a day or two to cook up.

There could be something to this since the TD16 remnant LOW area is still spinning and convecting long after going inland. Small convection area near Jamaica too now.
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MiamiensisWx

#46 Postby MiamiensisWx » Sat Oct 18, 2008 9:53 am

This system will also develop via lifting mechanisms and a frontal boundary, unlike Wilma...
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Re: Re:

#47 Postby gatorcane » Sat Oct 18, 2008 9:58 am

MiamiensisWx wrote:
gatorcane wrote:06Z GFS shows a low passing through peninsula Florida from the NW Caribbean, very October-like here:

You're also overlooking the fact that the operational GFS is MUCH weaker with the system than preceding runs...

What are your thoughts on the intensity?

Personally, I believe this event will be a weak, negligible system for Florida, and it may reflect an end to the CONUS season...


I think maybe a moder to high TS at the most but need to look at it more to determine intensity. Your forecast is complete and accurate. I do agree with the points you mention:

Look how suspicious this area is this morning, I say its our next invest by the end of the weekend:

Image
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Re: Late Season Development W. Carib. GFS & CMC

#48 Postby DESTRUCTION5 » Sat Oct 18, 2008 10:12 am

MiamiensisWx wrote:
MiamiensisWx wrote:It's quite plausible that the operational GFS is incorrect, as I have suspected that may be the case. Regardless, the operational GFS has gradually strayed from its original set-up in yesterday's 06Z run. In this case, the alterations make more sense because of the current pattern evolution. Originally, the operational GFS depicted a less amplified/more progressive 250-300 mb upper low (and associated vorticity maximum) over southeastern Canada, which contributed to a stronger 250-500 mb ridge to the SW; this resulted in a deeper upper low over the southern Plains. However, subsequent runs have caught on to the upcoming pattern change (including a weaker Pacific jet and -NAO set-up), so the upper low over the Canadian Maritimes lingered longer. As a result, the ridge to the SW and the upper low over the Midwest was weaker in recent runs. The implications are significant for any TC that enters the southern/SE Gulf of Mexico during the time frame.

The original set-up depicted by the operational GFS (06Z on October 17, 2008) showed wind vectors that were more backed (SSW) over the eastern Gulf of Mexico, unlike later runs. The pattern in the run suggested that any TC would take a path NE across southern Florida (like Isbell 1964). The orientation of the wind vectors (SSW) would have provided an excellent poleward outflow channel for an accelerating TC moving from SW/SSW to NE/NNE, and the fast movement/translational velocity of the TC would have reduced shear on the back side. In this situation, a TC would likely intensify over the SE Gulf of Mexico, as seen with Wilma 2005. It all depends on the speed of the TC and the orientation of the mid/upper level wind vectors in relation to the track of the TC.

Recent runs (as mentioned) have transitioned to more realistic solutions, which depict westerly wind vectors over the GOM and a flatter/weaker subtropical ridge over the Caribbean. In this scenario, any TC would be moving farther north, and the westerly/west-northwest wind vectors would induce considerable shear over the TC as it moves from SSW to NNE. Overall, if anything develops and (likely) moves toward the Florida peninsula/eastern GOM, it is very unlikely that it will exceed weak/moderate TS status, and it may likely evolve as a hybrid type system. There is a big difference between a strong TS/hurricane/major hurricane (especially if it is intensifying) and a stable/weakening weak/moderate TS. This event will not be a big issue if it even develops, in my view.

Overall, this event may provide some necessary precipitation before we enter the dry season (without strong winds of 55-60 kt or greater). The window for systems to affect the CONUS (and Florida) rapidly closes after October 25, so the clock is ticking.

The "season" for the CONUS may be over after this one, pending an anomalous strike in November...

It would be interesting for others to address this analysis...


Ill make one small comment, GFS this year also saw Ike as a tropical wave when it was a Cat 2, so.......
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Re: Late Season Development W. Carib. GFS & CMC

#49 Postby Blown Away » Sat Oct 18, 2008 10:13 am

The low is sitting on the coast of the Yucatan and is forecasted to move a little S then move offshore again in about 48+ hours. If this low can stay just offshore I agree it should be at least an Invest by the end of the weekend.
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#50 Postby HURAKAN » Sat Oct 18, 2008 11:02 am

For entertaintment purposes:

Image
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Re: Late Season Development W. Carib. GFS & CMC

#51 Postby Sanibel » Sat Oct 18, 2008 12:04 pm

That MM-5 would have to be the Jamaica disturbance.

The models being all over the place is why they aren't taken seriously at this range.


We need a floater on the Bay of Honduras because it has spin -now-.
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Re: Late Season Development W. Carib. GFS & CMC

#52 Postby Blown Away » Sat Oct 18, 2008 12:24 pm

Sanibel wrote:That MM-5 would have to be the Jamaica disturbance.

The models being all over the place is why they aren't taken seriously at this range.


We need a floater on the Bay of Honduras because it has spin -now-.


I agree, we need an invest tag on this one. I anticipate "Code Orange" next update. The only limiting factor is the low being so close to the coast, a few miles E or W will determine if this area develops. The TAFB has this low hugging the coast for 48 hours then move a little ENE off the coast. IMO, after this system passes the threat to the CONUS will be very low the remainder of the season.
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Re: Late Season Development W. Carib. GFS & CMC

#53 Postby MiamiensisWx » Sat Oct 18, 2008 12:52 pm

This one does not merit 20-50 percent (Code Orange) probabilities. Currently, there is strong northerly shear on the eastern flank of a small 250-300 mb UL anticyclone, as illustrated by visible satellite overlays. The system will continue to encounter northerly shear over the next 36-48 hours as the surface low drifts into the western Caribbean Sea. The operational GFS and other models indicates westerly shear over the system around ~60 hours, which perisists until an upper level anticyclone asserts itself at 250 mb over the western Caribbean Sea around ~84 hours. However, as previously mentioned, the Gulf of Mexico looks quite hostile when the system eventually moves northward. Conditions are not incredibly ideal around ~84 hours as well, since the system will be very close to the westerly flow farther NW.
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Re: Late Season Development W. Carib. GFS & CMC

#54 Postby Ed Mahmoud » Sat Oct 18, 2008 1:15 pm

Interesting 180 hour GFS. Super monster shear just North of projected surface low between Miami and the Bahamas, but the low itself is under reasonably light shear, and I'd think that kind of jet ripping just to the North would really juice up a possibly hybrid/sub-tropical system.


Image


If the GFS is correct, of course.
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Re: Late Season Development W. Carib. GFS & CMC

#55 Postby Sanibel » Sat Oct 18, 2008 2:33 pm

Area of interest "Invest 1" is south of Jamaica and needs a separate thread.

It is a weak, blown-off surface spiral heading west that looks like it will dissipate:


Image
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#56 Postby Tampa Bay Hurricane » Sat Oct 18, 2008 3:57 pm

So after reading Miami's analysis, and also good call gatorcane on td 16's remnants remaining,

Would it be reasonable to say that there is a high chance (given the heavy
convection in the NW Caribbean) of a weak sheared tropical storm
forming (as explained in Miami's analysis of the shear
vectors/westerlies shearing a northward moving system) and moving northeast into the peninsula mainly as a rain maker
but with hybrid characterisics and winds of 40-50 mph?
Similar to Hybrid-Tropical Storm Gabrielle of 2001 (70 mph landfall in venice near sarasota
with subtropical/hybrid characteristics in september of that year)- but winds of 40-50 mph NOT
70 mph??
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Re: Late Season Development W. Carib. GFS & CMC

#57 Postby blp » Sat Oct 18, 2008 4:15 pm

1011MB low now offshore according to latest NHC floater Image below from 20:15UTC.

Image

Convection also building offshore.

Image
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Re: Late Season Development W. Carib. GFS & CMC

#58 Postby Blown Away » Sat Oct 18, 2008 4:20 pm

I can't believe they took "Code Yellow" off this area. If this convection continues to persist it should be at least "Code Yellow" at the next update, IMO.
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Re: Late Season Development W. Carib. GFS & CMC

#59 Postby blp » Sat Oct 18, 2008 4:22 pm

Blown_away wrote:I can't believe they took "Code Yellow" off this area. If this convection continues to persist it should be at least "Code Yellow" at the next update, IMO.


I agree.... I am thinking that with the Low now offshore they will probably bring the code yellow back up.
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Re: Late Season Development W. Carib. GFS & CMC

#60 Postby MiamiensisWx » Sat Oct 18, 2008 4:23 pm

Blown_away,

It's a graphical error. The area is still highlighted as <20 percent (Code Yellow):

http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/gtwo/two_atl.gif

ZCZC MIATWOAT ALL
TTAA00 KNHC DDHHMM
TROPICAL WEATHER OUTLOOK
NWS TPC/NATIONAL HURRICANE CENTER MIAMI FL
200 PM EDT SAT OCT 18 2008

FOR THE NORTH ATLANTIC...CARIBBEAN SEA AND THE GULF OF MEXICO...

THE NATIONAL HURRICANE CENTER HAS ISSUED THE LAST ADVISORY ON THE
REMNANT LOW...FORMER TROPICAL STORM OMAR...LOCATED ABOUT 820 MILES
EAST OF BERMUDA.

1. AN AREA OF DISTURBED WEATHER OVER THE NORTHWESTERN CARIBBEAN SEA IS
ASSOCIATED WITH A BROAD AREA OF LOW PRESSURE. LITTLE MOTION IS
ANTICIPATED AND DEVELOPMENT...IF ANY...WILL BE SLOW TO OCCUR. THIS
SYSTEM WILL LIKELY PRODUCE CLOUDINESS AND HEAVY RAINS OVER PORTION
OF CENTRAL AMERICA...PRIMARILY OVER BELIZE AND THE EASTERN YUCATAN
PENINSULA.


2. CLOUDINESS AND SHOWERS ASSOCIATED WITH A TROPICAL WAVE CENTERED
ABOUT 700 MILES WEST-SOUTHWEST OF THE CAPE VERDE ISLANDS REMAIN
DISORGANIZED. THIS SYSTEM IS FORECAST TO MOVE TOWARD THE
WEST OR WEST-NORTHWEST AT 10 TO 15 MPH WITH NO SIGNIFICANT
DEVELOPMENT.

3. A SMALL AREA OF DISTURBED WEATHER IS LOCATED OVER THE CENTRAL
CARIBBEAN SEA BETWEEN JAMAICA AND HAITI. UPPER-LEVEL WINDS ARE NOT
FAVORABLE FOR DEVELOPMENT.

ELSEWHERE...TROPICAL CYCLONE FORMATION IS NOT EXPECTED DURING THE
NEXT 48 HOURS.

$$

FORECASTER AVILA

http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/gtwo_atl.shtml
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