Is Entrainment of Cool, Dry Air "Killing" Isabel?

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wxman57
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#21 Postby wxman57 » Wed Sep 17, 2003 5:55 am

DT wrote:that was a nice hypothesis... but a couple of things...

did we go through this once before? was the dry air suppose to Kill off Isabel this morning then this afternoon?

the analogy to Gordon is kind of stretch... Gordon was MUCH closer to the coast and MUCH smaller in size and was barely at any time a cat 1 hurricane. Arguably Gordon was not.

Moreover arent you carrying the point too far? aren't MOST east coast Mid or late sept hurricanes surrounded by dry air as the near the east coast?

Didnt you also declare Claudette dead in the Gulf too?


Actually the cold front in Isabel's path is very similar to the situation with Gordon in 2000. Sure Gordon was barely a Cat 1, but that shouldn't make any dfference. No, Isabel was not forecast to weaken previously because of dry air entrainment. Wind shear disrupted Isabel's outflow to the west 24 hours ago. No, most east coast late September hurricanes do not have to travel THROUGH a mass of cold air enroute land. This situation is unique.

This is not just a pocket of mid-level dry air out in the middle of the tropics. This is truely a different airmass along the east coast. The air temperatures in the Carolinas and Virginia are in the 50s (low to mid 60s on the coast). Wind is blowing offshore, so the front is not retreating. Taking a look at this morning's WV shot, the dry air has just about replaced that one patch of moisture east of Florida. But, again, it's not just the mid-level dry air, it is the cool, dry surface air over the Carolinas that should be increasingly ingested by Isabel as it approaches the coast.

Once the air is ingested, the immediate effect would be to shut down Isabel's core of convection. This would prevent further intensification and lead to steady weakening. Next, the wind field would expand outward away from the center (this is already happening to a degree, though not entirely due to CAA into the center). Then Isabel's pressure would steadily rise and she would gradually wind down from the current intensity. True, Isabel is not a weak storm like Gordon was. It'll still be a large low pressure area with a large radius of gales, but it won't have the core of 100+ mph winds if the cold air is ingested.

I don't think Isabel will be reduced to just about nothing as Gordon was, but it could be reduced to a strong TS with a very large radius of TS-force winds at landfall.

The thing to watch will be dew points along the coast ahead of Isabel in the next 12-24 hours. If that front retreats northwestward and the CP air along the coast is replaced by MT air, then it shouldn't bother Isabel too much up to landfall.
Last edited by wxman57 on Wed Sep 17, 2003 6:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: This Morning

#22 Postby wxman57 » Wed Sep 17, 2003 6:01 am

Aquawind wrote:Looking at the big picture of WV doesn't look all that dry. I have seen drier enviroments with intensification. It's the combination of cool and dry that may hinder strengthening. Shear may play a part as well it seems.

http://cimss.ssec.wisc.edu/tropic/real- ... wg8sht.GIF


Here's last night's WV image:
http://home.houston.rr.com/wx/dryair.gif

And this morning's:
http://home.houston.rr.com/wx/dryair2.gif

Dry air now covers all of Florida. But, again, it's not just the mid-level dry air, it's the cool, dry surface air over the east U.S. cost that can really have an impat on Isabel as Isabel heads toward the frontal boundary today.
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Re: This Morning

#23 Postby Aquawind » Wed Sep 17, 2003 6:07 am

wxman57 wrote: it's not just the mid-level dry air, it's the cool, dry surface air over the east U.S. cost that can really have an impat on Isabel as Isabel heads toward the frontal boundary today.


I agree entirely..
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rainstorm

#24 Postby rainstorm » Wed Sep 17, 2003 6:33 am

i was noticing that yesterday. not at all tropical here. very cool and dry
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#25 Postby Lowpressure » Wed Sep 17, 2003 7:14 am

I would disagree and say she now has a protected eyewall and could get a bit better organized if anything. She looks better than she has in a while and cloud tops are cooling. Recon will be very important today.
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#26 Postby Rainband » Wed Sep 17, 2003 7:16 am

Lowpressure wrote:I would disagree and say she now has a protected eyewall and could get a bit better organized if anything. She looks better than she has in a while and cloud tops are cooling. Recon will be very important today.
On TV they said the trof could help her get stronger but the dry air would weaken her..or they could cancel each other out. I guess that means landfall at 100mph :roll: Noticed your in FB..they said TS winds are possible there but not likely this point :wink:
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cold air

#27 Postby wxman57 » Wed Sep 17, 2003 7:29 am

I'm at work now. Taking a look at Isabel this morning, it does look better on visible imagery, certainly. But I see temperatures in the upper 50s along the VA coast with dew points in the mid 50s. NE wind at 25 kts along the VA/NC coast will draw this air out into the Atlantic through the day today. I notice nobody is analyzing the fairly strong cold front directly in Isabel's path down the east U.S. coast. The Weather Channel just shows the high pressure center NE of Isabel. I don't think you can call air in the 50s across VA maritime tropical (MT). Temperatures are in the 40s farther inland. We'll just have to see if and when this cool air is entrained into Isabel as it moves closer to the front today.
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#28 Postby Guest » Wed Sep 17, 2003 7:45 am

well the DRY coming in is going to kill Isabel scenario has turned out to be complete CRAP.... she has a EYE wednesday morning

gee.... what a surprise. NOT!
The development of a clear EYE that was NOT there yesterday afternoon is NOT a sign of weakening.

DING... next whacky thory please
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#29 Postby VA_Red » Wed Sep 17, 2003 7:48 am

The dewpoints may be low in VA, but that's not the case where Isabel sits now. 41002 is showing the dewpoint at 73 degrees and Hatteras has a dewpoint of 68, with humidity at 84%.

Granted, Isabel should weaken when it hits the cool dry air, but that may not happen until it gets into VA.
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#30 Postby Rainband » Wed Sep 17, 2003 7:50 am

Will be interesting to see what happens..Thanks Wxman57 :wink:
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Re: This Morning

#31 Postby Guest » Wed Sep 17, 2003 7:52 am

its clear you are reaching over a busted scenario. It isnt happening in ANY manner ...


wxman57 wrote:
Aquawind wrote:Looking at the big picture of WV doesn't look all that dry. I have seen drier enviroments with intensification. It's the combination of cool and dry that may hinder strengthening. Shear may play a part as well it seems.

http://cimss.ssec.wisc.edu/tropic/real- ... wg8sht.GIF


Here's last night's WV image:
http://home.houston.rr.com/wx/dryair.gif

And this morning's:
http://home.houston.rr.com/wx/dryair2.gif

Dry air now covers all of Florida. But, again, it's not just the mid-level dry air, it's the cool, dry surface air over the east U.S. cost that can really have an impat on Isabel as Isabel heads toward the frontal boundary today.
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wayoutfront

#32 Postby wayoutfront » Wed Sep 17, 2003 7:56 am

will one of you pros tell me with Izzzy still over such warm waters, and getting ready to cross the gulfsream, will it nullify much of the cool dry air it has encountered?
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#33 Postby WEATHER53 » Wed Sep 17, 2003 10:43 am

I think this Is a good debate and not too harsh. If people with "professional met" in their title are going to make pretty explicit and dramatic statements that amount to "this hurricane is dead" then they will need to be right and if counterviews are presented, they will have to accept it. Personal attacks are bad but a vigorous defense of the position "it is not dead and info to that extent is incorrect" is really a core appeal of a weather board. Thanks
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#34 Postby WEATHER53 » Mon Oct 06, 2003 4:56 pm

How "dead...dry air killed..cool air killed" was Isabel. Atlhough no 120mph+ stone cold killer at landfall, thank the lord, it caused enough havoc for VA/MD/DC to likely rank fourth on the all time hit list behind 1933 hurricane, Hazel and Agnes.
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