East Coast development soon? Floater named "INVEST"

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gatorcane
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Re: Possible development off the East Coast of USA soon?

#21 Postby gatorcane » Wed May 19, 2010 8:21 pm

cycloneye wrote:From the Melbourne AFD.

AREA FORECAST DISCUSSION
NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE MELBOURNE FL
325 PM EDT WED MAY 19 2010

WILL ALSO BE TRACKING TWO FEATURES OF INTEREST THROUGH THIS WEEKEND
...ALONG WITH HOW THE SUBSEQUENT MODEL RUNS CONTINUE TO HANDLE THESE
FEATURES. THE FIRST IS THE AFOREMENTIONED WRN ATLC SHORT WAVE TROUGH
THAT WILL SPIN UP A SFC LOW SOMEWHERE BTWN 25-30N AND 70-75W. THE
SECOND AND MORE IMPACTING FEATURE (EVENTUALLY) WILL BE THE NRN
STREAM SHORT WAVE TROUGH WHICH MOVES ENEWD THROUGH THE MIDWEST AND
GRT LKS RGNS FRI/ SAT...THEN MAKES AN ABRUPT RIGHT HAND TURN ON
SUN...DROPPING EITHER SHARPLY SWD ALONG THE MID ATLC/SERN SEABOARD
(GFS SOLN) OR SSE INTO THE WRN ATLC WHERE IT PHASES WITH THE
TROUGH/LOW ALREADY THERE AND BECOMES VERTICALLY STACKED (ECM SOLN).
GIVEN THE PRONOUNCED UPSTREAM AMPLIFICATION...SIGNIFICANT HGT FALLS
APPEAR LKLY ALONG OR JUST OFFSHORE THE EAST COAST. EXACTLY WHERE
THIS OCCURS WILL DETERMINE THE EXTENT OF INTERACTION BTWN THE TWO
SYS...AND HENCE HAVE HUGE FCST RAMIFICATIONS LCLY...ESPEC FROM MON
ONWARD.

MON-WED...FCST BCMS UNCERTAIN GIVEN THE DISPARITY IN THE GFS/ECM
SOLNS. IT IS IMPORTANT TO NOTE THAT THE LATEST GFS IS STRONGER AND
MORE CUTOFF AT H50 THAN PREV RUNS...AND THUS HAS TRENDED TWD THE
ECM. BRAND NEW 12Z ECM HOT OFF THE PRESSES IS ALMOST IDENTICAL TO
IT`S 00Z SOLN AT BOTH THE SFC AND H50...ALBEIT JUST A BIT FATHER
NORTH WITH WHERE THE STACKED LOW MOVES INTO THE SERN CONUS (CLOSER
TO THE FL/GA BORDER RATHER THAN INVOF SGJ-DAB). WHAT SEEMS MORE
CERTAIN IS THAT THE UPPER SYSTEM WILL BE FAIRLY STOUT AND WILL
RETROGRADE SWWD UNDERNEATH THE STRONG UPPER HIGH TO ITS NORTH...
EVENTUALLY WINDING UP CLOSE ENOUGH TO CTRL/NORTH FL TO PRODUCE
UNSETTLED WX BY TUE/WED. SHOULD CONTINUE TO SEE AN ONSHORE FLOW
REGIME...SOMETHING BTWN ENE AND NE...WITH SUFFICIENT MOISTURE TO
PRODUCE AT LEAST SCT POPS...PSBLY HIGHER


That's an interesting discussion, however, I've seen this before in late May this time of year. I'm thinking this Low, if it develops, is going to induce a more northerly windflow for peninsula FL causing drying not more rain chances. We'll see but it is all based on the position of where this Low ends up. If FL is on the West side which I think it will be, count on it being drier than normal. Will go with the dry solution for FL at this time with 20% POPS at most and adjust as necessary based on more model runs.
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Re: Re:

#22 Postby KWT » Wed May 19, 2010 8:45 pm

AJC3 wrote:
pepeavilenho wrote: I trust it won't be non-tropical at the beginning....let's see :roll:


Quite the contrary...it will be non-tropical at the start. I don't think anyone here has said that this won't be a B/I (baroclinically initiated) low given the pressure falls will be dynamically forced via upper level jet divergence. It will also be cold cored aloft given there will be an existing mid level trough that will give way to an even stronger mid to upper level cutoff low dropping southward over the western Atlantic. Without a cold core mid level trough/low aloft, SST's won't be warm enough to support central convection. At best...IMNSHO...this low may transition to a hybrid.


Depends on track to be honest, if it takes the GFS track, its going to struggle to even get to hybrid status...BUT if it takes the ECM track, it goes over the Gulf Stream which has been proven to be warm enough to transition upper cold core systems to at least subtropical in May before and I'd give a 50-50 chance of subtropical in that case.
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#23 Postby KWT » Thu May 20, 2010 3:49 am

Models still develop a low that starts cold core, however the models are now agreeing to take it towards the GUlf Stream which would support a slow transition towards a weak shallow warm core...

This looks alot like Andrea from 2007 synoptically to me.
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Re: Possible development off the East Coast of USA soon?

#24 Postby xironman » Thu May 20, 2010 4:46 am

Interesting little system, maybe it could get to subtropical. I am going to be in Hatteras next week, could be a nice swell.

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Re: Possible development off the East Coast of USA soon?

#25 Postby xironman » Thu May 20, 2010 4:56 am

One more, at the upper levels the winds don't look so bad in that one little spot

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Re: Possible development off the East Coast of USA soon?

#26 Postby cycloneye » Thu May 20, 2010 5:44 am

00 UTC ECMWF at 144 hours

Wow,it really cranks up the intensity while is moves thru the gulfstream.

Image
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Re: Possible development off the East Coast of USA soon?

#27 Postby AJC3 » Thu May 20, 2010 6:55 am

gatorcane wrote: That's an interesting discussion, however, I've seen this before in late May this time of year. I'm thinking this Low, if it develops, is going to induce a more northerly windflow for peninsula FL causing drying not more rain chances. We'll see but it is all based on the position of where this Low ends up. If FL is on the West side which I think it will be, count on it being drier than normal. Will go with the dry solution for FL at this time with 20% POPS at most and adjust as necessary based on more model runs.


My question to you is for what days are you thinking 20%? The forecast we issued along with this discussion kept minimal pops in the forecast through MON (10-20%) due to the expected drier NE wind flow. Here's an earlier excerpt from the same AFD that Luis posted...

FRI-SUN...LCL CWA WILL REMAIN ON ERN PERIPHERY OF DLM GOMEX RIDGE
WITH TIGHTENING PGRAD BTWN SFC HIGH PRES BUILDING OVER THE WRN
ATLC...AND A SFC TROUGH/LOW THAT IS FCST BY ALL MODELS TO DVLP
EAST OF THE BAHAMAS AND NORTH OF HISPANOLA. NRLY UPPER FLOW COUPLED
WITH ENE-NE SFC FLOW USUALLY SPELLS MINIMAL PRECIP FOR ECFL AS
DIURNAL CONVECTION GETS SHUNTED TO THE WRN HALF OF THE PENINSULA
...SO OTHER THAN A SMALL THREAT FOR ISOLD LOW TOPPED COASTAL SHRA
DURG THE LATE NGT/EARLY MORNING (10-20%) LCL AIR MASS WILL REMAIN
TO DRY TO SUPPORT PRECIP...WITH MARINE MODIFIED AIR QUICKLY
OVERSPREADING THE CWA FROM EAST-WEST EACH AFTN.
MAXES SHOULD RUN
A BIT COOLER THAN PREV DAYS...MAINLY M-U80S BUT MILDER AT NGT...
L70S...WITH M70S ALONG THE IMMEDIATE COASTAL AREAS.

It's not until TUE through WED, when the upper low was forecast to be pretty much right on top of north Florida, that pops were increased, and even then, pops were only bumped up to 30% from 20%, given the uncertainty at that time range. All-in-all, I think our thoughts were pretty much along the same line.
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Re: Possible development off the East Coast of USA soon?

#28 Postby gatorcane » Thu May 20, 2010 6:56 am

I think the ECMWF is off on this one this time. I cannot see it getting that strong. I looked at the 00Z and 06Z of the GFS and looks like it has it right in my opinion. A nontropical cold-core low (rather large one) that should occupy the waters east of the Bahamas and north of Hispaniola retrograding back Westward. Should look like a nice spiral on SAT images but without consolidating convection in the center that you would see in a tropical system. This low develops from a frontal system low that dives SE from the Great Lakes region, pushing offshore into the Atlantic.
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#29 Postby HURAKAN » Thu May 20, 2010 7:09 am

Image

Image
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Re: Possible development off the East Coast of USA soon?

#30 Postby KWT » Thu May 20, 2010 7:17 am

gatorcane wrote:I think the ECMWF is off on this one this time. I cannot see it getting that strong. I looked at the 00Z and 06Z of the GFS and looks like it has it right in my opinion. A nontropical cold-core low (rather large one) that should occupy the waters east of the Bahamas and north of Hispaniola retrograding back Westward. Should look like a nice spiral on SAT images but without consolidating convection in the center that you would see in a tropical system. This low develops from a frontal system low that dives SE from the Great Lakes region, pushing offshore into the Atlantic.


Given the track I see utterly no reason why it can't become at least subtropical once it moves over the Gulf Stream...also remember that given its going to have developed through Baroclinic forces the pressure will be lower anyway then you'd expect, I'd have thought.

I'm pretty confident that at the very least we will have something to look out for, whether or not it makes it to STS depends on how long the system takes to move on out of the way to the NE...the ECM sure takes its time.
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Re: Possible development off the East Coast of USA soon?

#31 Postby cycloneye » Thu May 20, 2010 7:19 am

If all goes as the models are showing,I can see invest 90L up for this by Saturday or Sunday.
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Re: Possible development off the East Coast of USA soon?

#32 Postby wxman57 » Thu May 20, 2010 7:31 am

The models are clearly developing a surface reflection of a large upper low late this weekend and into next week. Wind shear across the region will remain high for another 3-5 days, and SSTs are a bit cool (24C-25C)for tropical development. It's a setup for a cold-core coastal low. But if it eventually has some significant convection around a center then there's a chance the NHC will take notice and start thinking about calling it a subtropical storm.

By the way, anyone have some good SST links? I used to have a link to a high-res SST chart that covered the East U.S. Coast. It was black & white, but I'm not opposed to a color version. There was a second such chart that covered the GoM. Both had the Gulf Stream and Loop Current identified with speeds indicated.
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#33 Postby pepeavilenho » Thu May 20, 2010 7:33 am

Image

Main models
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#34 Postby KWT » Thu May 20, 2010 7:34 am

Yeah Wxman57 its certainly not going to be a quick evolution but if it hangs about for a good while then no reason why it won't at least have a shot at reaching subtropical strength if nothing else.
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#35 Postby hurricanetrack » Thu May 20, 2010 7:58 am

wxman57- try this one: it is huge but very detailed.

https://oceanography.navy.mil/legacy/we ... 19/0-0-5/0
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Re: Possible development off the East Coast of USA soon?

#36 Postby Parungus » Thu May 20, 2010 8:02 am

wxman57 wrote:By the way, anyone have some good SST links? I used to have a link to a high-res SST chart that covered the East U.S. Coast. It was black & white, but I'm not opposed to a color version. There was a second such chart that covered the GoM. Both had the Gulf Stream and Loop Current identified with speeds indicated.


Perhaps you are looking for this:

http://www7320.nrlssc.navy.mil/IASNFS_W ... S.html#gom

Image
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Re: Possible development off the East Coast of USA soon?

#37 Postby wxman57 » Thu May 20, 2010 8:57 am

Parungus wrote:
wxman57 wrote:By the way, anyone have some good SST links? I used to have a link to a high-res SST chart that covered the East U.S. Coast. It was black & white, but I'm not opposed to a color version. There was a second such chart that covered the GoM. Both had the Gulf Stream and Loop Current identified with speeds indicated.


Perhaps you are looking for this:

http://www7320.nrlssc.navy.mil/IASNFS_W ... S.html#gom

http://www7320.nrlssc.navy.mil/IASNFS_W ... e/gomt.gif


No, I have that site. It's good for the Gulf and Caribbean but not for the East U.S. Coast. The imagery I"m thinking of had the SSTs identified in 0.5C contours along with a trace of the Gulf Stream (with current speeds) and any warm/cold eddies defined.

This USED to be the correct link:
Northern Gulf Stream / East U.S. Coast
https://www.nlmoc.navy.mil/cen/local/gulf/gulf01.gif

Gulf of Mexico:
https://www.nlmoc.navy.mil/cen/local/gulf/gulf02.gif

Can't even reach that server now. Maybe they changed the base URL?
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#38 Postby HURAKAN » Thu May 20, 2010 8:57 am

Image

latest consensus
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#39 Postby HURAKAN » Thu May 20, 2010 9:33 am

Image

Latest
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Re: Possible development off the East Coast of USA soon?

#40 Postby artist » Thu May 20, 2010 9:42 am

wxman57 wrote:
Parungus wrote:
wxman57 wrote:By the way, anyone have some good SST links? I used to have a link to a high-res SST chart that covered the East U.S. Coast. It was black & white, but I'm not opposed to a color version. There was a second such chart that covered the GoM. Both had the Gulf Stream and Loop Current identified with speeds indicated.


Perhaps you are looking for this:

http://www7320.nrlssc.navy.mil/IASNFS_W ... S.html#gom

http://www7320.nrlssc.navy.mil/IASNFS_W ... e/gomt.gif


No, I have that site. It's good for the Gulf and Caribbean but not for the East U.S. Coast. The imagery I"m thinking of had the SSTs identified in 0.5C contours along with a trace of the Gulf Stream (with current speeds) and any warm/cold eddies defined.

This USED to be the correct link:
Northern Gulf Stream / East U.S. Coast
https://www.nlmoc.navy.mil/cen/local/gulf/gulf01.gif

Gulf of Mexico:
https://www.nlmoc.navy.mil/cen/local/gulf/gulf02.gif

Can't even reach that server now. Maybe they changed the base URL?

don't know if this site will help you or not. I just found it -
http://www.sstcharts.com/#ssts
there is this from noaa which I don't care for -
http://www.nodc.noaa.gov/dsdt/cwtg/egof_tmap.html
maybe this one? might be the best, not sure, no expert here, just trying to help :D
http://marine.rutgers.edu/mrs/sat_data/ ... nothumbs=0
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