JAN 14-15 SECS...BRUTAL COLD to follow...among other things:

Winter Weather Discussion

Moderator: S2k Moderators

Forum rules

The posts in this forum are NOT official forecast and should not be used as such. They are just the opinion of the poster and may or may not be backed by sound meteorological data. They are NOT endorsed by any professional institution or STORM2K.

Help Support Storm2K
Message
Author
User avatar
FLguy
Professional-Met
Professional-Met
Posts: 799
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 5:36 pm
Location: Daytona Beach FL
Contact:

JAN 14-15 SECS...BRUTAL COLD to follow...among other things:

#1 Postby FLguy » Mon Jan 12, 2004 7:21 pm

this will only cover the area of heaviest snow and applies to the northeast ONLY.

5-10" (10" MAXIMUM...there will be no accumulations over that). Cape may NJ to Warrenton VA on the southern side...then Warrenton VA to Harrisburg PA (making up th western extent of the 5-10" area). the northern extent will be bounded by a line from harrisburg PA to Bridgeport CT.

Coastal sections are the MOST LIKELY TO SEE THE HIGHEST ACCUMULATIONS.

the system will not be strong or able to come up the coast because of the following things:

1) INTENSE (486DM) and strongly dislocated PV Near newfoundland. this causes the jet to strengthen underneath it which will not allow for the s/w to dig. IF the s/w was further north and closer to the PV it would simply be sheared apart.

We can pick this out VERY well on the 18z 1/12 run of the GFS valid 06z 1/15:

Image

Notice the strong PV depressed across southeast canada with the lowest height center (486DM) centered near Newfoundland. this is an EXTREMELY displaced position for the PV speaking from a climatology standpoint. the s/w to the south of the PV is our system in question.

2) while the s/w should be far enough south to avoid getting ripped up by the strong jet...it still will not be able to dig and WILL NOT close off at H5.

3) this will be a VERY FAST moving system...and moisture starved at least initially. what QPF is cranked out is largely the result of the dynamics associated with the system as compared to significant amounts of moisture. this is common for clippers and other similar Arctic waves.

I DO NOT believe the set-up is correct for a major east coast snowstorm. but this is a relatively strong clipper and it will be able to throw back some atlantic moisture helping to increase QPFs as it bombs out off the east coast thurday.

Phasing between the s/w in question and another associted with the PV lobe digging into the great lakes region will occur offshore... and too late to make any kind of difference. also even as phasing takes place...the s/w will be drawn into the PV forming a HUGE ocean low.

78hr GFS (off the 18z run) Valid 00z 1/16:

Image

the GFS is implying that the PV splits into two sections and takes on a dipole structure at 78hrs with one center just west of newfoundland and the other (developing in the western portion of the lobe) over maine. this will be accompanied by a shot of BRUTALLY COLD air into the northeast on FRI:

78hr GFS (off the 18z run --- 850 heights...temps and winds) Valid 00z 1/16:

Image

the GFS at 78hrs has the -30C isotherm at 850 all the way down to the SOUTHERN NEW ENGLAND COAST !!!! meanwhile the other second section of the PV dipole is located over Maine!!

problems loom this weekend as well with regard to the STJ feature and why this COULD become a BIG TICKET ITEM for the northeast and mid-latlantic **** IF **** and thats a BIG BIG IF everything comes together correctly. it will largely depend on how much the PJ relaxes as the PV is getting out of SE canada and how quickly the STJ energy gets kicked out. IF the PJ relaxes enough to allow the s/w this weekend to dig and the STJ energy is kicked out AHEAD of the northern branch feature....you folks in the mid atlantic...and northeast...LOOK OUT.

the -SOI implies that the pattern should be more progressive by this time...which is why that energy cant stay back that far for too long. and if we assume that the EC the past few runs has been slipping into its usual funk (with regard to its handling of the STJ ---- one of its only major biases) things COULD be getting very interesting up and down theeast coast this weekend.

a one-two punch of wintery wx?? its possible. but lets take this one event at a time.
Last edited by FLguy on Mon Jan 12, 2004 8:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
0 likes   

donsutherland1
S2K Analyst
S2K Analyst
Posts: 2718
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2003 8:49 pm
Location: New York

Re: JAN 14-15 SECS...BRUTAL COLD to follow...among other thi

#2 Postby donsutherland1 » Mon Jan 12, 2004 7:33 pm

Great discussion, FLguy. I absolutely agree, both respect to the extreme cold (which I don't think can be emphasized enough) and the interesting possibilities for the weekend. A lot has to come together, as you noted, but it's something to think about. Even if no storm results, the bitter cold will make the week memorable.
0 likes   

User avatar
Stephanie
S2K Supporter
S2K Supporter
Posts: 23843
Age: 63
Joined: Thu Feb 06, 2003 9:53 am
Location: Glassboro, NJ

#3 Postby Stephanie » Mon Jan 12, 2004 7:38 pm

Very good analysis and I was actually able to follow what you were saying about the PV's between your descriptions and the maps.

Question - what do the X's symbolize on this map? Are they low pressure systems?
0 likes   

User avatar
Stormsfury
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 10549
Age: 53
Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2003 6:27 pm
Location: Summerville, SC

#4 Postby Stormsfury » Mon Jan 12, 2004 7:39 pm

Stephanie wrote:Very good analysis and I was actually able to follow what you were saying about the PV's between your descriptions and the maps.

Question - what do the X's symbolize on this map? Are they low pressure systems?


The X's on the 500mb maps indicate where the vorticity maximums exist within the flow, and the N's indicate the vorticity minimums.

SF
0 likes   

Anonymous

#5 Postby Anonymous » Mon Jan 12, 2004 7:40 pm

I live no more than 15 miles from the coast here in Norther ocean county in central NJ, i know that 5-10 is over my region. do you think i could get 10 inches?
0 likes   

User avatar
Stephanie
S2K Supporter
S2K Supporter
Posts: 23843
Age: 63
Joined: Thu Feb 06, 2003 9:53 am
Location: Glassboro, NJ

#6 Postby Stephanie » Mon Jan 12, 2004 7:46 pm

Stormsfury wrote:
Stephanie wrote:Very good analysis and I was actually able to follow what you were saying about the PV's between your descriptions and the maps.

Question - what do the X's symbolize on this map? Are they low pressure systems?


The X's on the 500mb maps indicate where the vorticity maximums exist within the flow, and the N's indicate the vorticity minimums.

SF


Thanks!

:D
0 likes   

User avatar
Stormsfury
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 10549
Age: 53
Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2003 6:27 pm
Location: Summerville, SC

#7 Postby Stormsfury » Mon Jan 12, 2004 7:46 pm

Excellent discussion, FLguy ...

Tonight's ECMWF continues to leave some more questions than answers ... first, in regards to the s/w still hanging back BUT a little faster than last night's run ... secondly, the EC DOES bring down BITTERLY cold air in the Northeast, but unlike previous runs, really doesn't build it down into the MA/SE like I previously thought it would ...

On Day 5, the 0C 850mb isotherm does extend into South Carolina, but warms substantially by the end of the 7 day period ... *scratching head* ... especially since the first low (1006 mb) is off the coast and a secondary weak 1008 mb low appears in the NE GOM and looking at the EC SFC map leaves me with more questions ... like, with such N flow, why oh why does the EURO warm 850mb Temps to near 10C along Coastal SC? ...

EURO Day 7 MSLP

EURO Day 7 850mb Temperatures

IMHO, something's NOT adding up, and I still believe it'll be a LOT colder in the Carolinas/GA (possibly) than the models are depicting (another by-product of the mishandling of the s/w in the southern stream) ...

SF
0 likes   

User avatar
isobar
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 2002
Joined: Thu Feb 06, 2003 9:05 am
Location: Louisville, KY

#8 Postby isobar » Mon Jan 12, 2004 7:53 pm

Great discussion. Can I ask 2 quick questions?

1. Is "PV" - Positive Vorticity?

2. What are QPFs? I see it in NWS forecast discussions all the time. Been trying to figure it out.

Thanks!
0 likes   

User avatar
FLguy
Professional-Met
Professional-Met
Posts: 799
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 5:36 pm
Location: Daytona Beach FL
Contact:

#9 Postby FLguy » Mon Jan 12, 2004 7:58 pm

Stormsfury wrote:Excellent discussion, FLguy ...

Tonight's ECMWF continues to leave some more questions than answers ... first, in regards to the s/w still hanging back BUT a little faster than last night's run ... secondly, the EC DOES bring down BITTERLY cold air in the Northeast, but unlike previous runs, really doesn't build it down into the MA/SE like I previously thought it would ...

On Day 5, the 0C 850mb isotherm does extend into South Carolina, but warms substantially by the end of the 7 day period ... *scratching head* ... especially since the first low (1006 mb) is off the coast and a secondary weak 1008 mb low appears in the NE GOM and looking at the EC SFC map leaves me with more questions ... like, with such N flow, why oh why does the EURO warm 850mb Temps to near 10C along Coastal SC? ...

EURO Day 7 MSLP

EURO Day 7 850mb Temperatures

IMHO, something's NOT adding up, and I still believe it'll be a LOT colder in the Carolinas/GA (possibly) than the models are depicting (another by-product of the mishandling of the s/w in the southern stream) ...

SF


thanks...well have to see in relation to the weekend event whether its the ECM bias which is taking over or if its actually correct in holding the energy further back longer. but in the short term...day 3 ECM has 999mb low off the NJ coast. could turn into a MUCH more of an interesting situation now especially considering the phase between the s/w associated with the PV lobe and our clipper s/w phase much further back.

then things turn brutally cold in the northeast.
0 likes   

User avatar
therock1811
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 5163
Age: 39
Joined: Thu May 15, 2003 2:15 pm
Location: Kentucky
Contact:

#10 Postby therock1811 » Mon Jan 12, 2004 7:59 pm

1. I don't know, but my gut tells me that's not it.
2. Quantitative Precip. Forecast
0 likes   

User avatar
Stormsfury
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 10549
Age: 53
Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2003 6:27 pm
Location: Summerville, SC

#11 Postby Stormsfury » Mon Jan 12, 2004 7:59 pm

isobar wrote:Great discussion. Can I ask 2 quick questions?

1. Is "PV" - Positive Vorticity?

2. What are QPFs? I see it in NWS forecast discussions all the time. Been trying to figure it out.

Thanks!


PV = Polar Vortex

QPF = Quantitive Precipitation Forecast

SF = (Stormsfury) Image
0 likes   

User avatar
Stormsfury
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 10549
Age: 53
Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2003 6:27 pm
Location: Summerville, SC

#12 Postby Stormsfury » Mon Jan 12, 2004 8:02 pm

FLguy wrote:
Stormsfury wrote:Excellent discussion, FLguy ...

Tonight's ECMWF continues to leave some more questions than answers ... first, in regards to the s/w still hanging back BUT a little faster than last night's run ... secondly, the EC DOES bring down BITTERLY cold air in the Northeast, but unlike previous runs, really doesn't build it down into the MA/SE like I previously thought it would ...

On Day 5, the 0C 850mb isotherm does extend into South Carolina, but warms substantially by the end of the 7 day period ... *scratching head* ... especially since the first low (1006 mb) is off the coast and a secondary weak 1008 mb low appears in the NE GOM and looking at the EC SFC map leaves me with more questions ... like, with such N flow, why oh why does the EURO warm 850mb Temps to near 10C along Coastal SC? ...

EURO Day 7 MSLP

EURO Day 7 850mb Temperatures

IMHO, something's NOT adding up, and I still believe it'll be a LOT colder in the Carolinas/GA (possibly) than the models are depicting (another by-product of the mishandling of the s/w in the southern stream) ...

SF


thanks...well have to see in relation to the weekend event whether its the ECM bias which is taking over or if its actually correct in holding the energy further back longer. but in the short term...day 3 ECM has 999mb low off the NJ coast. could turn into a MUCH more of an interesting situation now especially considering the phase between the s/w associated with the PV lobe and our clipper s/w phase much further back.

then things turn brutally cold in the northeast.


I'm taking it SHOULD that phase occur, the PV might

1) either be much further WEST with the phased storm shooting NE (and MIGHT become a 50/50 low - at least long enough to do SOME good, even for locations further south.

2) The ejecting (or should be) given the recent NEG SOI trends would elude to a more progressive regime in the PAC regions, and SHOULD keep the s/w moving east across the southern tier.

SF
0 likes   

User avatar
isobar
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 2002
Joined: Thu Feb 06, 2003 9:05 am
Location: Louisville, KY

#13 Postby isobar » Mon Jan 12, 2004 8:02 pm

Thanks alot Mike!
0 likes   

User avatar
therock1811
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 5163
Age: 39
Joined: Thu May 15, 2003 2:15 pm
Location: Kentucky
Contact:

#14 Postby therock1811 » Mon Jan 12, 2004 8:07 pm

Thanks for enlightening me and Donna as to the PV's, SF!
0 likes   

User avatar
Stormsfury
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 10549
Age: 53
Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2003 6:27 pm
Location: Summerville, SC

#15 Postby Stormsfury » Mon Jan 12, 2004 8:22 pm

therock1811 wrote:Thanks for enlightening me and Donna as to the PV's, SF!


You're welcome, Jeremy.

Another passing thought, now that the EC seems a little more progressive with the s/w energy in the southern stream, the northern stream features appear quite different than last night's run ... and ALL the globals are up at odds with each other.

Seems some have the damming high necessary for the Southeast, some don't and there's too many damn little features for the models to get a grip on trying to handle which one it wants to do something with. Like there isn't enough going on already... :roll:
0 likes   

User avatar
therock1811
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 5163
Age: 39
Joined: Thu May 15, 2003 2:15 pm
Location: Kentucky
Contact:

#16 Postby therock1811 » Mon Jan 12, 2004 8:32 pm

Hey just to make sure, what time do 0z runs come out? I thought it was 8pm ET?
0 likes   

User avatar
Stormsfury
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 10549
Age: 53
Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2003 6:27 pm
Location: Summerville, SC

#17 Postby Stormsfury » Mon Jan 12, 2004 8:36 pm

therock1811 wrote:Hey just to make sure, what time do 0z runs come out? I thought it was 8pm ET?


7 pm EST, 8 pm EDT ... however, the availability to the general public is about 2-3 hours later than the actual runtime.

SF
0 likes   

ColdFront77

#18 Postby ColdFront77 » Mon Jan 12, 2004 8:50 pm

"PV" does stand for "Positive Vorticity," too; but not in this case. :)
0 likes   

ColdFront77

#19 Postby ColdFront77 » Mon Jan 12, 2004 8:54 pm

therock1811 wrote:Hey just to make sure, what time do 0z runs come out? I thought it was 8pm ET?


Stormsfury wrote:7 pm EST, 8 pm EDT ... however, the availability to the general public is about 2-3 hours later than the actual runtime.

SF

I've noticed there being a delay in the general public seeing computer forecast models. Do we know how soon after the designated time are they released for meteorologists/forecasters?
Last edited by ColdFront77 on Mon Jan 12, 2004 8:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.
0 likes   

User avatar
FLguy
Professional-Met
Professional-Met
Posts: 799
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 5:36 pm
Location: Daytona Beach FL
Contact:

#20 Postby FLguy » Mon Jan 12, 2004 8:54 pm

ColdFront77 wrote:"PV" does stand for "Positive Vorticity," too; but not in this case. :)


yes that is true PV can also stand for positive vorticity. but in this situation it is intended to stand for Polar Vortex.

these are not to be confused with PVA which is Positive Vorticity Advection.
0 likes   


Return to “Winter Weather”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: wxman22 and 10 guests