National Chains should allow their stores to be looted...

[GalvestonDuck]

Am I living in a time warp? How are you typing these gazillion paragraph long posts before I even get a drink of water?

[GalvestonDuck]

This Kevin doesn't mess with Texas!

Not you -- Cho.

Oh, and duh...since it's not Cho, I was confused. I really thought he was replying fast!

[PurdueWx80]

Oh, see now you've done it, Kevin. Attacking the Texans? *shakes head*

What's next -- ducks?

Relax...walk away...re-read later, k?

Attacking you guys haha? lol...no, i'm simply asking why it seems to be every texan that does post in this topic are the ones that are against looting for survival or any stealing to live at all...that's it...i'm not attacking, simply asking a question...

Kevin Cho

Probably cuz a bunch of these people in Nawlins are headed for Houston.

[jasons2k]

My $.02

I think the looting is wrong and I want to throw the remote at my TV every time I see it. It's disgusting. I'm very worried it will escalate into riots, which always lead to fire, which would destoy what's left.

So, 2 things are about to happen:
1) The people that quit looting and evacuate can't take any of it with them and
2) The people that keep looting and fail to evacuate are sealing their own fate, and will soon be answering to their maker.

OMG...how can you not understand that people are STARVING, the Federal and Local governments can't get to them, and some people have to actually steal to simply survive!??!?! Now i've got a question...why is it always the Texans that say looting is the worst thing to happen ever??!

Kevin Cho

Look, I wasn't going to take this in that direction and get into a long debate. I can understand the desparation of those taking food, water, etc. - the ones truly desparate. But for the MOST PART, the people trapped in attics in flooded houses, unable to evacuate, are not looting because THEY CAN"T.

The people looting on Canal Street, for the most part, are not in ANY immediate danger. Instead of stealing watches they need to get their rear ends out of the city while they can! Can you not understand the utter idiocy of that??? And FWIW Kevin I may be a Texan now but I was born in TAMPA FLORIDA.

OK, I am done. I apologize if I got huffy. It just makes me so angry when people are being told to leave, their lives are at risk from disease and who knows what, but instead they steal Nikes.

[LSU2001]

My $.02

I think the looting is wrong and I want to throw the remote at my TV every time I see it. It's disgusting. I'm very worried it will escalate into riots, which always lead to fire, which would destoy what's left.

So, 2 things are about to happen:
1) The people that quit looting and evacuate can't take any of it with them and
2) The people that keep looting and fail to evacuate are sealing their own fate, and will soon be answering to their maker.

Agree
TIm

[GalvestonDuck]

Oh, see now you've done it, Kevin. Attacking the Texans? *shakes head*

What's next -- ducks?

Relax...walk away...re-read later, k?

Attacking you guys haha? lol...no, i'm simply asking why it seems to be every texan that does post in this topic are the ones that are against looting for survival or any stealing to live at all...that's it...i'm not attacking, simply asking a question...

Kevin Cho

I know...just giving ya a hard time.

As for me, I'll copy and paste since I haven't said it in this thread, but it was in this other one: http://www.storm2k.org/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?p=1033310

I agree...in a sense. If it was not true "looting" but rather salvaging of supplies and food, that they could and would share and distribute, if salvaged before flood waters destroy them. Then, that *might* be excusable. After all, the store owners may be more concerned about their homes and family right now than their businesses. They might be heartbroken to see so much food gone to waste because of rising flood waters. Heck, if it was me and I knew I was going to have to deal with the loss of a store anyway, I'd rather know that someone took it and put it to good use instead of seeing tons of food gone to total waste.

[mahicks]

Ok....Before I get on my roll, I am a "BIG retail Chain" Manager.

Now that it's said, I'll get on with my rant....

Kevin, I've always agreed with most of your posts, but come on, are you serious? This idea is unacceptable for many reasons. I am glad your High School, please try not to skip economics J.K.

But seriously Kev, this would simply not work, for many of the reasons already posted. One that hasn't been posted is probably one of the biggest issues of all. LEGAL issues....Do you know by giving something away as a company, you are still responsible for it? Regardless of Waivers, or what ever else said?
Hypothetic scenario: Kev-Cho inc. is allowing hurricane survivors to loot in thier store.......Mary Sues Mom gets some really needed infant formula off the shelf for her...Little did she know the seal was broken and Mary Sues mom just gave her a Listeria infection.....Mary Sue dies due to lack of medical help....Mary Sues Momma sues Kev-Cho for 14.2 billion...

Sounds rediculous?? Well it is....But.....It's true.

Want another scenario?? I got plenty....

Kev-Cho allows looting in Pass Christian Mississippi.....
Now little Johnny Smiths Mom, that never took anything in her life, goes their to get needed stuff...Mom is trampled to death, as is Johnny due to the 20,000 other people that do the same thing...

Want More??????

Kev-Cho allows looting in Slidell..The entire store is emptied out, the looters say "why stop here" Lets go to Hicks-Mart (lol...sounds kinda funny) Hicks-mart gets emptied, but why stop there?? Lets go to the neighbor-hood across the street...

Ok...Enough for now....But one final thing Kevin. I hope that your really don't think that large retail chains make "billions" a day. The cost structures are really high...

Another example... If Store X does a 100 million in Sales a year...They would only Net and AVERAGE of 5%, which yes I know is 5 million. But without returns like this, how can you expect investors to buy stock???

Besides didn't one really good one already donate a cool million, AND...TONS AND TONS AND TONS of water and supplies????

Ok...Enough...Kev, I hope I didn't make you mad, just trying to help you understand [/i]

[Matt-hurricanewatcher]

I agree that food in water or other life given things should be given out. But not t.v or other stuff like watches or rings or any of that. Only the stuff to keep them alive.

[jasons2k]

Well...you see. You may have been born in Tampa, but you chose to live in Texas..so your a Texan, now anyway.


1) Nike's...umm, their shoes...do you know how dangerous it is to walk around a city hit by a hurricane without shoes? I made that stupid mistake and I cut my foot really bad on a piece of Glass during Hurricane Charley...just because they are Nike's means nothing...that their shoes does.

2) Have you seen how many people on television who are taking Diapers? Food? Water?? You know that the media enjoys hyping stories...but I fully support any need to take what you need to survive...would you rather they died, even with all the supplies right there??

3) There is NO way for us to actually understand what they are feeling, who are we to judge who really needs these supplies. However, if they claim they need it for survival (food etc, not electronics or jewelry), i'd say we should take their word for it.

Kevin Cho - East Naples, FL
Junior: Naples High School

I didn't choose to move here, I moved here in the 8th grade. But hey, I'm a proud Texas now hoping to retire in Florida some day.

Yes, it's dangerous to walk without shoes. I saw a report last night where a journalist had to get a tetanus shot. But the people I saw carrying 10 pairs of shows and a boombox already were wearing them.

I've seen the people taking water and diapers. I'm not saying in that situation I wouldn't do the same thing for my children.

I think you're missing the point. People brandishing pistols breaking into a Children's hospital and demanding jewlery is NOT OK. People holding a sheriff at gunpoint in a parish jail is NOT OK. People carjacking at gunpoint is NOT OK. People plundering homes for what's left in the jewlery box is NOT OK. People breaking into pharmicies and stealing drugs is NOT OK. It turns into rioting and PEOPLE GET KILLED.

[kevin]

I'd just like to say Mr. Retail Chain Manager...Wal-Mart and many companies exploit those in poorer nations to make merchandise at the lowest possible price, especially Asian countries, and especially Wal-Mart.

I've done huge amounts of research on this...the bottom line. Wal-Mart owners are very 'interesting' people, especially how they make people work for cents a day, and in some cases a week, in their native lands....

Kevin Cho

Evidently you haven't done research what so ever. Wal Mart provides enormous amounts of jobs around the world. It is a vital part of the world economy, with a gross corporate product comparable to Belgium. Also Wal Mart does not employ people to make products but buys products from other companies.

Also, you underestimate the buying power of cents a day. Cents a day in the 3rd world will keep your family from starvation. When you need food there are two main options, working for a company or engaging in prostitution (females generally) and/or crime.

Cents per week is wrong. People in Afghanistan make $300 / year, which is more than 6 dollars a week. I do not know how much research you have actually done, but I doubt you know as much as you feel you do. You see Wal Mart is just providing a service that would be done by other corporations.

And anyways it does not follow to discuss the morality of wal mart. it is non sequitur.

Lawlessness is the worst thing in the world. If you don't know this now, I would urge you to read more conventional history, discard Howard Zinn for a moment, and focus on how the world works instead of how it would be nice to be working.

[PurdueWx80]

On the other hand, I think it's totally premature and naive to think that anyone looting is a gang member. Most of the people who stayed and are now stuck have clearly lived very poor lives and now when this catastrophe hits everyone is without food and water and whatever else. I would think that would put everyone on edge (at least I know I'd go nuts), making them more likely to do illegal and idiotic things. Also, many of these reports of looting in hospitals and drug stores have been shown to be rumors and lies. I'm not doubting that there are bad people who are stealing drugs (for uses other than to help sick loved ones) and other items, but I personally can't blame anyone for anything they are doing down there right now. I also can't say that I wouldn't do the same if I were them.

Proof:

No Children's Hospital Looting
4:35 p.m.

Doug Mittelstaedt, vice-president of Human Resources for Children's Hospital in New Orleans, said one of the biggest issues at the hospital on Wednesday was debunking the prevalent rumor that looters had stormed the hospital.

Mittelstaedt said things actually were operating smoothly at the hospital - the generator was running efficiently and efforts to relocate patients were going well - but fighting the rumor was a major issue.

Officials had to lock the doors of the hospital because people had arrived, apparently thinking there was a mob scene and they could get in on looting.

He said the hospital has been flooded with calls offering assistance from other Children's Hospitals in Louisiana and Texas. "The amount of calls we have gotten for support have been overwhelming," Mittelstaedt said. "The phones literally have been ringing off the hook."

With so many calls, Mittelstaedt said officials have been able to match up the 100 patients with hospitals that specialize in the particular treatments for each.

[mahicks]

"We would also like to warn everyone that we cannot garuntee the safety of any of the food, you will be eating it at your own risk...blah blah blah, some warnings"...

Kevin Cho

Kev, I've already told you, this would not work. I wish we had an attorney here that could step in and shed some light on this issue.

This is the reason why most retail and grocery chains will no longer give away food products that are not sellable but not spoiled.

Disclaimer or not, you're still responsible.

I will agree with allot of what your saying regarding 3rd world countries and what their workers get paid for American imported goods. AND...I have to appreciate your research...

But I have to ask you:

1. Where do you and your parents shop? What do they buy?
2. IF other countries would do like we do in america and have labor laws to protect their workers, we wouldn't be having this portion of the conversation would we?

[docjoe]

In response to Kevins suggestion that the big corporations allow "legal looting" my response is this. How about we expect people to follow the laws and be responsible. I am not condemning taking basics needed for survival (after all bread, milk etc has a limited shelf life). However even a disaster situation does not mandate that those who have give to those who dont. Thank goodness most people in this country are willing to help those who are less fortunate. There is absolutely no excuse at all...NONE...to justify stealing from someone else regardless of the perceived wealth of the one being stolen from. What the H@#$ are these people going to do with 10 pairs of tennis shoes that probably are not even the right size and a plasma TV with no power and no house to put it in.I feel for the small business owner who has enough problems with storm damage and now has to deal with his place being ransacked and his inventory being taken. Without law and order in this situation we have nothing...just my input for now

docjoe

[NC George]

"We would also like to warn everyone that we cannot garuntee the safety of any of the food, you will be eating it at your own risk...blah blah blah, some warnings"...

Kevin Cho

Those warnings do nothing to absolve yourself of liability, in fact, they may make it worse because they indicate you know there is a problem. Did you know that thieves who have injured themselves whilst breaking into a home (injured themselves, not even injured by the homeowner) have successfully sued the same homeowner they were robbing.

There was a picture of a Food Giant distributing free food in MS. They had a steel barrier down, and were handing out the food from a 12" by 12" opening at the bottom. This was with a calm crowd, and police present.

There was a interview with a MS lawyer, and he explained that necessity was a defense to the crime of looting (which carries a penalty of 15 years in prison in MS, BTW.)

The problem here, Kevin, is the looters who were looting for "necessity" are now roving bands of armed, carjacking miscreants who are now going through homes looking for items of value. Reports of looting this time will cause people not to leave next time, in case the same situation erupts. This causes future deaths.

[mahicks]

In response to Kevins suggestion that the big corporations allow "legal looting" my response is this. How about we expect people to follow the laws and be responsible. I am not condemning taking basics needed for survival (after all bread, milk etc has a limited shelf life). However even a disaster situation does not mandate that those who have give to those who dont. Thank goodness most people in this country are willing to help those who are less fortunate. There is absolutely no excuse at all...NONE...to justify stealing from someone else regardless of the perceived wealth of the one being stolen from. What the H@#$ are these people going to do with 10 pairs of tennis shoes that probably are not even the right size and a plasma TV with no power and no house to put it in.I feel for the small business owner who has enough problems with storm damage and now has to deal with his place being ransacked and his inventory being taken. Without law and order in this situation we have nothing...just my input for now

docjoe

Great post, I fully agree.

On another note, has anyone else noticed how hard is to give your money away??

The Red Cross and Salvation Army Web sites took me forever to make a donation.

[jasons2k]

In response to Kevins suggestion that the big corporations allow "legal looting" my response is this. How about we expect people to follow the laws and be responsible. I am not condemning taking basics needed for survival (after all bread, milk etc has a limited shelf life). However even a disaster situation does not mandate that those who have give to those who dont. Thank goodness most people in this country are willing to help those who are less fortunate. There is absolutely no excuse at all...NONE...to justify stealing from someone else regardless of the perceived wealth of the one being stolen from. What the H@#$ are these people going to do with 10 pairs of tennis shoes that probably are not even the right size and a plasma TV with no power and no house to put it in.I feel for the small business owner who has enough problems with storm damage and now has to deal with his place being ransacked and his inventory being taken. Without law and order in this situation we have nothing...just my input for now

docjoe

That sums up how I feel, you just said it better

[gunner1551]

Heres my 2 cents,

Like the sentimates of other posters, I agree with both camps.
But what some I think havent thought of yet is that even if the store isnt completly destoyed, all of the contents will be written off anyways. If the food goes bad then no body can benifit. The company has lost it all already and the people that need it the most dont get it at all. If the police didnt have to gaurd stores and help hand out food, they could be helping in an area of the city that really need it.

Just my 2 cents I hope I havent upset anyone. please respond with yuor thoughts

[weatherSnoop]

The obvious to me is...If the store should choose to give items to those in need it is not looting, but receiving a donation. I would bet if "these" (any) stores had employees in town/could get to the store they would be putting together Need-specific care packages and distributing them. Unfortunately this is not the situation in these stricken areas so it is robbery.

I must say, in footage seen... I saw one woman walk out of a store with one pack of disposable diapers while those in front and behind were dropping as much into the filth as they took with them! I think I would like to meet that woman one day!

[CentralFlGal]

After the recent stampede for 4-year old Mac computers for $50, opening the door for looting is a very poor idea.

How about the crowd crushes for fad items during the holidays? If you think the stores are bad during that time, just imagine what it would be like if you made all of a store's contents fair game for free.

Now, there are local businesses giving their food away for free. It's either that or toss it, and the shop owners are sensitive to the needs of their community and wish to help where they can. There *are* positives out there by which to gauge a business' moral obligation to the community if one wishes to pursue this in a philosophical fashion.

While I applaud this level of idealism, the overall human condition is not equipped to operate in this fashion.

[HurriCat]

Poor lil' Kev-Cho... Man, I just "love" how this sort of socialist thinking works. It's just so darn easy to give away SOMEONE ELSE'S money and property for "the good of society". With such a plan, why then should anyone ever plan or buy any supplies at all? You are "OWED" them.

The point is, that this sort of attitude seeks to even further excuse the lack of PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY. Make that INDIVIDUAL responsibility. The idea of one person taking care of their own needs and thinking for themselves is the polar opposite of the hive-mind of Socialism. They want us to be like ants - all striving for the good of the whole - all equal - all having the same "value", and all being protected by the group.

People are not ants. They do not all strive - look at the millions who are born to parents who live entirely on handouts. People of ALL colors, by the way. They will grow up, thinking that this is how they do it - go on "assistance". There is an embedded thinking now, by these people that they are OWED this living.

Not all people are equal. This one you just have to deal with. YES - everyone has equal value as people, but it takes individual effort to EARN your level of existence in society. Are you telling me that a lazy, video-game addicted teen dropout is equal - in their place in society - to a young person that makes honor roll, graduates with honors and goes to college. Later, they build a business and employ people. Meanwhile, the dropout is still living with parents and might not even work part-time at some minimum wage job. No, not equal.

The group will not protect you. Courts have ruled the the police HAVE NO OBLIGATION TO PROTECT ANY PARTICULAR INDIVIDUAL in society. They therefore protect SOCIETY, but not YOU. Look at how fast our so-called civilization breaks down after a disaster. In nature, if something knocks over an ant-hill, the ants do not immediately start stealing from and killing one another. Even in their frantic chaos, they all defend their home, protect their eggs and larvae and immediately start trying to rebuild. People certainly aren't ants.

This is why gun "laws" really push my buttons. Some Socialist politician, hiding with THEIR loved ones behind walled communities and HIRED GUNMEN, is telling me that MY life and those of my FAMILY can't be defended! And a criminal by definition ignores all laws - so only the law-ABIDING are affected by so-called gun control.

So it all falls apart, because of plain old human nature. Yes - the Socialist-thinker might mean well and be busting with compassion. But theirs is a lost cause because humans are inherently INDIVIDUALS. You can't preach or legislate it out of us. We do see a deeply embedded effort to "EDUCATE" it out of our kids, but even then, only in certain parts of the country.

None of this is personal, Kevin. You have PASSION, but your VISION is only seeing the FOREST and not the TREES.

We aren't ants. We are those trees!